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mason805
Trad climber
East Bay, CA
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Karl Baba is right. It is good to see some people on this thread know what they are talking about.
I know your intentions are good, Blue. And I'm sure if it was a different government, your intentions would be all they had in everyone's interest.
I just don't think it's that simple.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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"We're only trying to make it place where they can live as they once did, prior to the Talibanization of the country. If they want to live tribally, fine, I don't think we're trying to deny them that.
As far as the Taliban or Afghanis not being involved in attacks on this country, that is absolutely correct! However, after the attacks, when the Taliban refused to give up the perpetrators they were harboring, they became conspirators, didn't they?"
Oh come on...tell the dang truth. Why are conservatives so happy to spend hundreds of billions, or even trillions in charity to help the Iraqi and Afghani people, who now hate us, and then turn around and oppose any positive social spending on health care and other issues at home?
You don't give a flying crap about the Afghanis! Admit it!
Fact...after the way we mishandled the Afghanistan situation, if they had a choice between Taliban and US control, they'd vote Taliban. Hell, Karzai had to use fraud in the elections just to stay in office and he wasn't even running against Taliban.
It's totally fubar and can't be redeemed. Sort of like you can date a young lady but after you raped her, she's not ever looking kindly on you again. We're just the new soviets to them now.
If I had to come up with a solution, besides cut and run, it would be an all Islamic peacekeeping force.
Peace
Karl
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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If I had to come up with a solution, besides cut and run, it would be an all Islamic peacekeeping force.
Really? Why? You think they'd be more sympathetic to Islamic sensitivities? Look at Iraq and Pakistan where they blow each other up in mosques, and constantly TARGET civilians.
How many mosques have we blown up? How many civi's have we deliberately targeted? NONE!
We go way out of our way to be sensitive to the culture. Have you ever looked at our current rules of engagement?
As far as not giving a crap about Afghani people, I do care. I remember reading over and over, before 911, about life under the Taliban. It was horrid, inhumane, and deadly if you didn't strictly adhere to sharia laws.
As for Karzai being illegitimate? That's BS. He may not be the best leader, but there could be much worse.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Oct 13, 2009 - 11:49am PT
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A tribute was recently given to WW2 veterans of Operation Market Garden and the liberation of Holland. Guess who was invited to attend? Michael Yon.
It's pretty long but a pretty touching memorial with a lot of pictures too. General Petraeus was also in attendance.
http://www.michaelyon-online.com/market-garden.htm
I would have started a new thread for this but, as you'll see towards the end, it is related to current conflicts.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C. Small wall climber.
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Oct 28, 2009 - 05:39pm PT
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Fatalaties amongst allied/NATO forces to date in Afghanistan.
USA (825)
United Kingdom (223)
Canada (130)
Germany (39)
France (36)
Denmark (28)
Spain (26)
Italy (22)
Netherlands (21)
Poland (15)
Australia (11)
Romania (11)
Estonia (6)
Norway (4)
Czech Republic (3)
Latvia (3)
Hungary (2)
Portugal (2)
South Korea (2)
Sweden (2)
Turkey (2)
Belgium (1)
Finland (1)
Lithuania (1)
Over 40% of the deaths are from armed forces other than those of the US. Certainly it's a coalition led by the USA, with some more 'willing' than others. But from what one reads here, and in the US news media generally, you'd often hardly know that there was anyone else there.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Oct 28, 2009 - 07:18pm PT
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But from what one reads here, and in the US news media generally, you'd often hardly know that there was anyone else there.
Anders, while it's really nice to have good friends helping in a righteous cause, the American/British/Canadian power trio seems to be doing all the 'heavy lifting'.
There are some others that would like to help in that 'lifting' but their governments balk at it.
The Lithuanians and Danes are badasses too, just so ya know....They're in the heavy lifting too, I shouldn't leave them out.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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I'm kinda disappointed that more people don't respond here. These guys need attention and support. They do watch the internet on their down time.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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We're only trying to make it place where they can live as they once did, prior to the Talibanization of the country.
We've already done that by restoring to power the very warlords who abused the population so badly that the Taliban were all but invited to power in the first place. The return of the warlords as our proxies outside of Kabul and Kandahar is exactly why the Taliban is making a comeback. But to do things any different we would have to have a minimum of 400k troops to manage the country in lieu of the warlords. The U.S. public doesn't have the stomach for that and never will. Had we stayed out of Iraq and actually followed-through on Afghanistan - and showed a little spine and will - things could have possibly gone a bit better; but nothing constructive and lasting is ever going to be accomplished there with our current pitiful force levels and overwhelming lack of popular support for the war by both liberals and conservatives.
The whole neocon Afghanistan / Iraq [ / Iran ] (domino) strategy was predicated on us moving fast not digging in, with a frenzy of 'democracy' doing all the hard work in our wake as we left for the next country as fast as we arrived in the last. It was an ignorant fantasy drummed up and implemented by men who had no idea what wielding U.S. military might entails. Rather than restore a "Reaganite policy of military strength and moral clarity", they have bankrupted us morally and financially.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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bump for golsen...
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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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I get it, wanting to get me going on another Afghanistan thread huh?
Sorry I gots some work to do.
But I have read of some of the trials that the afghan population has been through and with them lies my deepest sympathy...
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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golsen, I was merely directing you to a thread that is more Afghan-centric. You don't have to say sh#t if you don't want to. I'm not in a debating mood either. I gotta fire up the BBQ in a sec.
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