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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Mar 24, 2005 - 01:01am PT
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Link O P Handle CO
403 South Main Street, Salem, IN 47167
(812) 883-2981
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deuce4
Social climber
Pagosa Springs CO
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 24, 2005 - 01:16am PT
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Shack, let me know how that one goes. I'd actually like to hear about some company taking it on. I gave Conrad's new business incarnation, Ace, all the info and old design notebooks to make the hammers, but as businessmen, possibly already losing money in the process of trying to revive 10year old product lines, I think they thought otherwise.
What you want to do is request a quote for 250, 500, and 1000 hammer heads. That would be the professional way to request the info. They won't want to make just 100, I can tell you right now. There's a lot of set up in forging. Also, you need to spec the material: use 4340 Chrome-moly Steel. That was what the 2nd batch of 250 hammers was made from around 1995. The first 500 hammers (from back in 1987) were made from 4130 steel, which is only about $1 cheaper per head, but that was the same material as the old out-of-production Chouinard big wall hammers, but 4340 is better (in my opinion) as it has a greater range for the subsequent heat treatment. Also you want the heads from Ajax in the un-heat treated condition, so they are easier to machine. After machining, then they need to be sent to heat treatment (more info on that later).
Ajax is unlikely to remember me by name, but if you refer to A5 Adventures, Inc. they might know the company. The hammers and beaks were specifically excluded from the A5 asset sale to TNF in 1997, so technically I still own the hammer rights (but not the trademark, TNF owns that, so you would need to grind off the A5 from the forging if you wanted to sell them).
The forging die itself is pretty cool--two parts, an upper and lower die, there are four separate shape impressions in each part, each impression a progression needed to take a round piece of stock to the final shape. Apparently the operator holds each hammer head stock with tongs as a 50 ton press slams the material repeatedly into one of the impressions in the die. When the operator is satisfied the material is close to the shape of the particular impression, it is moved to the next impression until it is pressed to final shape in the last of the four impressions. Each head takes quite a few slams of the press to progress through this process and take its final shape. Very labor intensive.
well, it's late. thanks everyone for your interest in my old gear. I'll be shipping out a bunch tomorrow...
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Mar 24, 2005 - 01:40am PT
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John,
Personally, I'd really like to the beaks back in production - they are great and am surprised no one has picked them up.
In the software world there is a notion of "open source" where the software is free and the users contribute to it's evolution and maintenance. Lots of software gets "open sourced" by companies for a variety of reasons. By coincidence the name of the main repository is "SourceForge" - sounds like we need the climbing equivalent; a real open source forge.
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WBraun
climber
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Mar 24, 2005 - 01:43am PT
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Quiz; who really invented the bird beak. This one is hard.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Mar 24, 2005 - 01:48am PT
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I thought it was Bridwell cutting off half of Crack 'N Ups (John just sold one of them...) - sacreligious really; only to be forgiven because of the advent of the beak...
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WBraun
climber
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Mar 24, 2005 - 01:48am PT
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Nope
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Mar 24, 2005 - 01:50am PT
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Enlighten us oh sage one...!
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WBraun
climber
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Mar 24, 2005 - 01:52am PT
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I no sage. It was Gene Foley who originaly made one years before the crackn ups. He showed it to us and Bridwell saw it too.
Gene suggested then it might be a tool to replace the rurp in some placements. But he never made any more than the one or two originals. When the crackn ups came out now they were available all you had to do was cut off one side. Bridwell saw it immediately from the original idea that Gene had developed earlier. Then later they were specifically manufactured for that application under the bird beak name.
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deuce4
Social climber
Pagosa Springs CO
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 24, 2005 - 01:58am PT
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One last note--unlike the hammer, manufacturing the beaks couldn't be simpler--Go to Thomas register, send a request for quote to 30 stamping companies with a blueprint of the shape and material spec(4130 steel is good choice), and wait for quotes, which will range from 50 cents to probably 5 dollars per (has to do with the companies willingness to do biz with a start up as well as the quantities requested).
then, mill off the taper. Then heat treat and when they come back, swage em. We probably did make some money on the beaks back in the day.
A milling machine would be nice for the taper, but you could probably grind them instead, and the whole process could be done in a garage with a few hundred dollars startup cost.
Let me know if anyone is interested in this, I could look up the heat treat specs. (I just hardness tested a Chouinard KB and used the same spec--I think it was RC 41/43 or so, maybe a little harder, not much).
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WBraun
climber
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Mar 24, 2005 - 02:04am PT
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Hey John did you just buy a milling machine?
And; I've posted a lot today, I think the loser police are going to get my ass. I think they may be at the door.
I better run before it's too late ..... where to run to????
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Mar 24, 2005 - 04:01am PT
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Yeah, what's up with those? A Bridgeport milling machine, a foundry furnace, and a dynamometer...? Looks suspiciously like someone suddenly capable of making innovative, high quality climbing gear in his garage - obviously doing a lot of thinking along with all that paddling...
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CtGunker
Trad climber
New Canaan, Ct
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Mar 24, 2005 - 08:58am PT
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Hey Werner, You think you're a loser? I just bid $160 for a hammer that I will never use and LOST!!!! LOL.
I did end up with the stoppers and mashies, though. Not sure what I'm going to mash them with? What I REALLY wanted was the Teton though. Scary Larry swears by them. I, on the other hand, swear AT them.
Fortunately I also lost out on the pins at the last minute. Not sure what I would have done with those either!!!
Lost of fun.
YO - ha ha ha!!! I can't wait til April - REVENGE will be mine! $5 gasoline will seem cheap by the time I get done with those haul bags!!!
Boy am I a loser...
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steelmnkey
climber
Phoenix, AZ
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Mar 24, 2005 - 09:21am PT
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Holy crapola John...
Those auctions are off the frickin' edge!!! But good for you. After I got sniped on the bongs, I figured I might as well shoot the moon on the hammer. It's one of the only ones I don't have. In the four years and change I've been watching Ebay for gear, these are the first A5 hammers I've seen pop up. Testament to a good product, I guess. Lots of interest in old climbing gear lately. Driving the prices insane. The really crazy auctions have been for old Coonyard-Frost wooden-handled ice axes. Some have run nearly $300!!
Werner - old Chouinard clubs have been running in the $80 range and up or so on Ebay. Some pushing into the $100 range every once in a while. Surprisingly, some of the originals have actually shown up, but mostly see the old crag hammer styles with the long curved tip.
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T2
climber
Cardiff by the sea
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Mar 24, 2005 - 09:28am PT
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WOW Museman what a pal. I got home last night had a quick look at Ebay to see that the hammers were out of my price range at 152 bucks and just clicked out of there. You are a true buddy for trying to get me one of those wall clubs.
I am with you Minerals, there isn't a hammer out there that compared to the A5. I am sorry I never got one when they were available. I still have some of those original catologs with photos of Jim Erdman, Jimmy Gaun, and Barry Ward in them. I read my big wall manuel every couple of years wether I need to or not.
Shack I would love to see another small run of those hammers for the people that will appreciate and use them. If you do get something going let me know.
John that was interesting and killer beta on the manufacturing of the hammer. It just goes to show your passion for our sport, because you sure were not getting rich off the hammers. Thanks!!
T2
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Festus
Mountain climber
Antelope Valley
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Mar 24, 2005 - 09:52am PT
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Hey, Nature, that was me as 9174steve...and completely shut out on all fronts!
Damn, I really wanted some of that stuff, but turns out I was just a bad pimp--and got my ass run off the street corner when the big boys showed up. Well, at least none of 'em took a hammer to me!
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nature
climber
Flagstaff, AZ
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Mar 24, 2005 - 10:32am PT
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you are not the only one that got pimp-slapped when the bigger hammer weilding pimps came out to play. I just couldn't bring myself to commiting to that bidding war. Contrats to the folks that now own a wall club!
I did win the hangers and the bolts as well as the misc stuff with the 583 fifi hooks. I really wanted the cam extractor too.
I'm willing to trade some items if interested.
Items I didn't win.
The big gear - I needed a #5 BD bad the other day and I wanted that bigbro.
The small gear - seemed like a steal for 20 used brassies.
The lot of a dozen or so medium sized cams. If I saw it right that added up to about $14 per cam unit. I was too slow.
The bidding went up so fast on those items i couldn't hit submit fast enough before the auction closed. Better for my pocketbook I suppose.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Mar 24, 2005 - 11:36am PT
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Shack - did you call Ajax? I'd be happy to if you haven't - we should get the ball rolling on that front...I'll call OP Link Handle and figure out the handles...
CtGunker - I've got a #7 Titon for you (Nature just got the #8 and #10) - we can work something out I suspect...
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Mar 24, 2005 - 11:43am PT
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John,
Do you recall what stamping company you used last time for the beaks? Wouldn't know anyone with a milling machine would you...?
Oh, and specs on the tangs...?
O.K. folks - who's willing to join the climbing community's first open source project (maybe we should call the hammers JM5's or the Deuce5's)? 250 hammers sounds like the minimum order, I'll take 2 - that's 248 to go...
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nature
climber
Flagstaff, AZ
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Mar 24, 2005 - 12:29pm PT
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Somehow I doublt we'll get the GNU license but oh well... copyleft is copyleft.
Unless they go for that ungodly amount some folks paid last night you can more than likely count me in on one.
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deuce4
Social climber
Pagosa Springs CO
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 24, 2005 - 12:30pm PT
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WLS Stamping comes to mind--somewhere midwest?
They should have the die. I think the blanks were about 60 cents each. FInish work includes reaming the cable hole (pre-stamped), milling the taper, and sending to heat treatment.
cheers
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