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jstan
climber
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On the question of professionalism.
In order to get the flows of money into an activity adequate to support professionalism you have to have leverage, i.e. spectators. Spectators can come for a number of reasons.
1. Motion. Beginning with the days we developed the high sensitivity to motion needed for finding meat, we have been attracted to motion. There is a lot of motion in doing an off width but not of the kind recognized as such by persons who have not themselves been so engaged. Even speed climbing is motion challenged.
2. Desire to see an event, like someone getting hurt or a big prize being won. Stock car racing gives spectators all three. Professional golf barely survives these tests. Winning a big prize is an event, barely. And you do get to watch the flag at the hole whip if there is a breeze. Pretty subdued.
3. To watch special people. Big league sports now travel on the fact the people on the field are being paid one hundred million dollars. The greed impulse has been put into gear.
I suppose climbing could get over these hurdles if we would get climbers paid a few million to perform as free soloists on an American Free Soloist TV show. But it would be very weak unless there were several deaths a year. Unroped races to the top would be the ticket.
The climbers would have to earn their pay. And reverting to old Roman times, not everyone would be allowed to get to the top.
Each of us has to ask whether we would pay $200 a seat to see such an event.
I tend to doubt it.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Interested in what folks think about this difference between the difficulty of a single move or two moves (cause moving from one move to another is another story) versus endurance.
Different comparisons to different sports are incomplete in many ways. Maybe there should be a 10 meter dash in track to measure pure reaction and get up and go power.
It's effortless to hold your breath for 10 seconds but murder to do so for 3 minutes.
Still, it amazes me sometimes when I touch a hold that some mutant can crank on and not understand how that's even possible
PEace
Karl
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MH2
climber
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Yeah, I don't think I can wait 'til 2040.
Can someone please do a plot of grip strength divided by body weight versus hardest route for climbers, then get the World Record out of Guinness and estimate what that guy or girl could climb (if they were a climber, that is)?
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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JStan: "In order to get the flows of money into an activity adequate to support professionalism you have to have leverage, i.e. spectators."
Certainly that's the case in the US, and that means TV. But climbing in western Europe is getting pretty close to being professionalized the way that many more mainline sports are.
In northern Italy, southern Austria, Messner is not just a celebrity-- he may well be the single best-known public figure. That's an exception, obviously, but there's been a tremendous shift in the last few years in corporate investment in climbing, i.e., it's not just Sportiva or Mammut anymore--
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Brian Kimball
Sport climber
Westminster, CO.
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There are 5.15 pitches that go free all over the Valley. The problem is this is not limestone so it is hard to have a pitch that is steep and sustained like most of the worlds hardest pitches. The cruxes on routes like La Rambla and Realization (both arguably 5.15a) come high on the route and are in the V11/V12 range and come at points in the climb that are already considered to be 5.14b/c or harder.
The reason why most 5.15s established today are of this nature is simply because it is easier to link 5.14c into a V12 boulder problem 100' up than it is to do a 5.11a thin hands crack to a five move V15 boulder problem (lower percentage). This would be around 5.14d/5.15a but again most of the guys out there climbing 5.15a these days are not bouldering any harder than V12 or V13 they are just stacking multiple V12s on top of one another and their condition is power endurance.
Then the guys like Daniel Woods that are out there putting up V15 blocks, do not have much interest in roping up to climb a 5.11 into a V15 just so he can say he put up the Yosemite's first 5.15. Bouldering with friends is much more fun...
To find something of power endurance style like Meltdown 5.14c (overhanging/pumpy with several hard cruxes in a row but no moves harder than say V12) this is difficult to find in Yosemite because the limited steep rock has a lack of features and holds.
Other than Meltdown the most difficult boulder problem on a free route or pitch would probably be the said V11 on the Dihedral Walls 5.14a crux pitch.
I would think it will be a long time before anyone gets around to establishing a pitch any harder than these and could be even 10+ years before you see 5.14d or 5.15a in the Valley. If anyone was going to do this it would have to be TC and it would probably be some 5.14b or 5.14c pitch way up on the North America Wall (maybe several in a row/who knows).
As far as V14 and V15 I think you will see problems of this difficulty go up all over in Yosemite with in the next year or two, will see...
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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BK: "[T]his is not limestone . . .."
Exactly. Fewer possible lines, at least in the style of climbing that currently predominates.
As compression and other new styles of moves become more popular in top-end bouldering (i.e., as it starts to look less and less like a 1980s or 1990s style woody), it's also possible to imagine more lines opening up in the valley.
Although I can't imagine a future in which the density of those opportunities would resemble that at a limestone or sandstone crag that is more regularly featured.
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Brian Kimball
Sport climber
Westminster, CO.
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As far as a true on-site of El Cap. well it would have to be of Freerider because Golden Gate and everything else is certainly much harder. Now with the Huber boulder pitch being out of commission and that technical looking grassy smear-fest of a Teflon Corner being the length of passage to the easiest way up the Cap...well I just do not see it all going down as soon as people might think. Probably a better chance of V15 in the Valley than of anyone pulling off this on-site. It gets my vote for hardest 5.12+ in the world!
I went for a true on-site attempt in May of 07' and got BITCH SLAPPED HARD at about 11pm on the Freeblast slabs. That's what I get for thinking I could on-site those tricky bastards in the dark (serves me right). If the slabs don't spit someone off then they are for sure going to get jacked by the 11c slab move from hell off of Heart Ledge.
If they make it though that then comes another 12a slab crux to gain the 11c down climb on Hollow Flake. Then comes the MONSTER OW...only a few people have ever on-sited to this point and then pulled off this pitch, keeping in mind you must be on lead the whole time.
OK-OK, so a few guys attempting the first on-site free ascent of the big stone and they make it this far it is possible but the chances of them pulling off the Teflon Corner are pretty slim (that's if is even clean and dry). Remember Yugi fell here, he even had Yosemite experience and 5.14d under his belt. Lets say they send "YEAAHHH MAANNN, I am home free biotch" NOT!!! You better hope it is October because for me the sopping wet Sewer Pitch was the bloody crux in May, for sure!!!
Better get a good nights sleep on the Block because now the route actually gets HARD. That 200' 12d corner is no joke really and neither is the sandbagged, scary as hell 12a traverse but that's ok the next 150' overhanging 5.11d pitch will pump you out just enough for the overhanging 5.11d Scotty Burke OW, grease-fest, horror-show...seriously how many people just rope up and fire that thing first go?
I would really like to see it go down, how awesome would this be but man really it could be 10 years maybe more-I hope I am wrong.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Interesting and detailed thoughts Brian. Thanks.
This is a good thread.
Still, nobody can predict when acts of genius might arise (unless they run rampant with some genius on a rampage)
Peace
Karl
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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yeah, nice to hear a tr. the mental pressure for an onsite must be pretty intense. window of health, fitness, weather, money, partner, etc.
not to mention that if you're a yos local it means saving the thing for however long it takes to work up to it.
can anyone think of a comp in some other part of the world?
auer's sole of attreverso il pesce was his second time on the route, but it's pretty close in length, commitment and even angle.
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Apr 19, 2009 - 09:31am PT
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Thanks Brian. You make climbing the Captain sound like sooooo much fun!
Leading the Hollow Flake was, at one time, a measure of skill since there was no way to nail it. Quaint, isn’t it?
For the first time, I am beginning to understand the way 'V' ratings--thanks Russ--and YDS ratings can be combined to create more meaningful descriptions of the difficulties. (I am sure that this is obvious to most everyone else.)
What are the 'v' ratings on for the Nose?
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cleo
Social climber
Berkeley, CA
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Apr 19, 2009 - 12:39pm PT
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I think it is time for some physicists to study this problem. How much force is required to stick to the rock, how much friction exists... how much is physically possible for humans. Quantify the surface roughness of various climbs. Start with Yosemite granite, draw up different models (cracks, face, etc.), start by testing human-capable climbs, and draw up an index. Correlate that to YDS, then take it forward to the limits of the human body, to the 1/10,000,000,000 outlier :).
Ed, aren't you a physicist?
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Apr 19, 2009 - 02:32pm PT
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One in 10 billion? That's a small number. In practical terms that would define the capabilities of only 10 or so of all fo the people who have ever been alive. And that assumes that they climbed.
"A Black Swan" problem.
Sort of takes the fun out of forecasting repeats. "The newest test piece is expected to be repeated within the next 758,000 years. Some question if the sit start can be maintained for such an extended period of time."
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 19, 2009 - 02:52pm PT
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I am a physicist. The "bottoms up" approach may not be the correct way to look at this problem, though it does bound the upper end. The problem with this sort of analysis would be to associate the physical boundaries to the difficulty grades.
I actually think the limitations come from the ability to train. Training is essential to pushing athletic limits, and the capacity to train is limited. This ability is largely a genetic trait, though more complicated than a single "training gene." The point is that the variation in individuals is probably statistical.
As has been mentioned above (I think James' post was the first) better training regimes could be available. John Bachar probably is a representative of hard training regimes of the past, and he, and others, achieved the huge jump in grade difficulty in the 70s. Ron Kauk has legendary strength and injury resistance, I don't know about Lynn Hill, but she is still climbing hard late into her life.
But even given the time and motivation to train, the body ultimately limits the amount of training that can be tolerated.
Training for climbing is a lot better now than earlier in the sport, but it probably still is the single activity that could advance the climbing grades. Right now climbing does not attract the attention of other sports, such as baseball, football (both varieties), etc, where there is a large economic incentive for individuals to excel.
That is why the logistic curve may be a good model for the grade limits. The pool of climbers is limited, and it becomes more rare to find the climbers who could climb at the physical limits, thus the grade limitation.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 2, 2018 - 08:09pm PT
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I'm posting the graph I had in this post
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=65106&msg=819235#msg819235
after a discussion around the campfire last week (yes a real campfire with real climbers who had done real climbs earlier that day, in Yosemite Valley).
what's the hardest Yosemite grade right now? (gee, I should know that... but some people keep things very quite). Magic Line has a 5.14b rating (1997 FFA). The graph would have had us at 5.16d by now.
This post has been up for 13 years already and the difficulties for routes has fallen far behind where I'd have expected (suggesting that the limit is lower than my estimate of 5.17d).
So if we put the hardest bouldering grades in how does that effect the graph? I don't have ready accesses to the bouldering guides (but I could probably do a little work, if someone hasn't already).
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jeff constine
Trad climber
Ao Namao
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Limestone routes of that grade are manufactured with drilled pockets.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 2, 2018 - 08:52pm PT
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@ Ed Hartouni: What's the current reigning hardest Yose boulder problem?
I don't actually know, but I could try to find out.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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A route on small features, climbed by a woman, unrepeated by a man. I think it's a possibility.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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It may be that size matters after all.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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https://gripped.com/news/lonnie-kauks-second-ascent-magic-line-5-14b-yosemite/ (January 2017)
Regarding grade extrapolation - grades are inherently subjective and ordinal rather than cardinal, so I would not expect them to scale in a predictable way.
Grade progressions happen every once in awhile when a dominant climber or two declare that the hardest climb is a lot harder than prior climbs and needs a new upper grade.
Also, there are so few climbs at the higher grades that we don't have any "law of large numbers" (like we would get on an average), so that adds to the variance as well.
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