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steveA
Trad climber
bedford,massachusetts
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As JStan commented earlier-The world is in DEEP shit! This election is being followed very closely all over the world. I served 2 years in Vietnam, was wounded twice. If you took a poll of Vietnam vets-I bet the majority are against this current war. Aside from the deaths etc. -it is appaling to see how much money we are wasting every day in Iraq which could be better used on education etc over here!
I was a high school teacher for over 30 years, and I remember talking to my students over 20 years ago on the subject of gasoline, and how we are using it up with abandon. I told them back then, that in their lifetime, there will be a crisis on this matter. I am building a retirement home in New Hampshire and will be heating the house using Geothermal heat. I will be using the 600 foot deep artesion well water, as my heat source. I have NEVER heard a thing on Geothermal heating on the news-NEVER, yet the savings are 50% over any other type of heating. It is interesting that both Bush and Cheney have this in their own homes-yet they are oil people. There is a ton of info. on Geothermal under Google.
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tooth
Mountain climber
B.C.
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LEB
your patients CAME INTO THE ER of THEIR OWN CHOOSING!!!!
If I lie to the US, sell them an innocent guy from a tribe I don't like, you seriously can compare that to the ER?
And after the proven 99% innocence rate of all the people they have released from GITMO? the 1% was convicted of misdemeanors. That and the growing evidence showing the gov't is obviously using this war on terror for other motives.
Why is it that they record your every phone call and the IRS gets all your credit card records now? To protect your privacy and the US government was originally set up to do?
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Um Lois, the people in the emergency room are there because they walked in looking for treatment.
The people in Guantanamo are there because they were forcibly taken there, and some of then had done nothing warranting their capture and imprisonment.
I hope you can imagine how you might feel if bounty hunters grabbed YOU off the street, and sold you into interminable captivity, with various forms of torture for your amusement.
BTW, the MILITARY's OWN LAWYERS were against this crap, they said it was illegal and would cause problems for the US. THE FBI went to Guantanamo, saw what the CIA was doing, and pulled out, saying the CIA was engaging in criminal activity and that the FBI would not be a part of it.
This is all in that book The Dark Side. The info comes from high sources. You can buy the book on Amazon for about 15 bucks, or in stores for 32.
One more thing, the way to get good info (and how to NOT get good info as well) from prisoners has been well understood since WW2. Some very successful interrogators of that era were asked about Guantanamo practices, and said basically, that does not work, and it's wrong. We knew it a long time ago.
The Bush/Cheney gang of war criminals just like to torture people. They were using guidelines developed by the Chinese and Koreans in the Korean war in fact.
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dmalloy
Trad climber
eastside
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>>I'm curious about the SCOTUS decision vis a vis the prisoners in Gitmo. During WWII, thousands of German and Italian prisoners were held here in the US. Would those thousands have been given the same HC rights now given to the Gitmo detainees?
quite some thread drift since this all started.....my own interest has waned. But Woody, to answer the question above, those WWII prisoners were treated as POWs, and their detention proceeded under the Geneva Conventions. They were never tried, when hostilities ended they were returned to country of origin. They were also never subject to sleep deprivation or other harsh treatment (I am so uninterested in controversy, I won't even use the T word).
The Bush Administration has labelled the current detainees (notice they are never called prisoners) "unlawful combatants." Because of that label, they have argued that neither the Geneva Conventions nor our own Constitution apply.
I'll again skirt controversy by not pointing out many of the effects of this course of action that I see as negative. But I will take a moment to point out that the vast majority of the detainees will remain in detention, with no trial having taken place or even being scheduled, next January.
So this entire sh!t sandwich is going to be passed on to the next Administration. One more example of the Bush Administration taking no time to judge the implications of its actions beyond the next 5 days or so.
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east side underground
Trad climber
crowley ca
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If MCain wins its time to exercise our constitutional right to bear arms and REVOLT!!!!!! NO MORE OF THE SAME 'OL BULLS@#T TAKE TO THE STREETS PEOPLE!!!!!
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Mtnmun
Trad climber
Top of the Mountain Mun
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This is an interesting thread and an eye into the thought process across America.
I am still waiting for someone to five me a reason why the republican party should stay at the helm of this sinking ship. Remember you are not just voting for Obama or McCain.
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jstan
climber
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According to Lois:
"I am reasonably certain that the prisoners in GTMO were not just ordinary people doing ordinary things."
OK folks. What is the quickest way to get off a jury? You say about the guilty party, "Can't be an accident he is here."
What Lois said makes her unfit to sit on a jury and more distressingly suggests she does not understand the principle, "Innocent until proven guilty." For the thousand years since the Star Chamber was disbanded our western culture has been based directly upon this concept. And now we have forgotten it. Forgotten!
She is not alone. This suggests there is something fundamentally wrong in our country. Another AP report today bears on this. As few as 50% of eligible voters have voted in some Congressional elections. More times than I can shake a stick at, people on ST have said they were not going to vote because it does not make any difference. It is reported Europeans are scratching their heads over this and saying while the US's electoral process may not be broken, it is surely bent.
We are losing the civil process that makes our life here possible.
Where does this take us? If the civil process is lost, it will be replaced by the Glock and the AK47, until we run out of ammunition, as we surely will. Then it gets more personal. Machetti's.
Do we truly prefer mounting guard each night at our homes and always carrying a machetti to going to the polls and voting?
We either vote or begin sleeping only every other night.
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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According to Lois:
"I am reasonably certain that the prisoners in GTMO were not just ordinary people doing ordinary things."
Well, the CIA says you are wrong. They told bush/cheney up to 1/3 were guilty of nothing. They were ignored.
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east side underground
Trad climber
crowley ca
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No I have not been drinking (ok some coffee) I'm just VERY FED UP withn the current state of our country. How can any one support whats going on? Americans are sheep just grazing along as long as the grass holds out. WE NEED TO FIND A WAY TO SUSTAIN OUR PASTURES. We owe it to our CHILDREN to leave them some sort of future. Or we can just leave it up to politicians and the MILITARY INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX to decide our future for us. OUR forefathers had the BALLS to say enough is enough. When will America live up to its heritage?
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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"It is a hold your nose and vote deal."
As a mature professional woman, LEB has to tell us this? That's basic civics. EVERY election in democracy is a hold your nose and vote deal, at least for thinking, seeing, hearing, informed voters. That's how democracy works - not bad, when you consider the alternatives. Compromise, balance, and all those other moderating influences make the system work.
As P.T. Barnum may never have said, but perhaps should have with respect to LEB, there's one born every minute.
LEB's gullibility with regard to what's happened at Guantanamo is the clincher. No doubt there's a few real nasties there, but the fact that the government's starting with a show-trial of bin Laden's driver (!), and has moved most of the prisoners elsewhere, shows the weakness of its position. Another nasty mess blackening the good name of the U.S.A., left for the next government to deal with.
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GDavis
Trad climber
SoCal
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I love these threads.
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east side underground
Trad climber
crowley ca
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After the last two elections, I've lost faith and trust in our Electorial system. Bachar has it right, there will be no election. When will we have, one individual one vote?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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LEB wrote
"People accuse me just as you accuse the officials at GTMO. "
Lois, It's the CIA, the supreme court, the Red Cross and military lawyers who are accusing the administration and Gitmo. I'm just conveying the news.
Hamdan's attorney's were given the 500 pages of evidence against him the day before the trial! Some fairness.
I'm wondering why it's war crimes to to be Bin Laden's driver and why he's not a prisoner of war rather than an enemy combatant? Seems to me that if you invade somebody's country, they get to fight back whether they wear a uniform or not.
We invaded Iraq, should each of our soldiers be prosecuted for war crimes if it's an illegal war like the UN says?
It's a joke, a political farce. Bush is the real war criminal for killing 100,000s of thousands in Iraq without due cause. Bin Laden is a war criminal too. It's just that he's only managed to kill a fraction of the innocent people.
PEace
Karl
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Hey let's all reargue the entire Habeas Corpus/torture issue with someone who only watches Fox n Friends and can't use Google ok go
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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HAHAHA Lois, you would be funny if so many were not just like you, and I don't mean that in a good way.
This torture thing is very serious. By all means read the book. But I doubt you will. I doubt that you will think anything that your far right, fringe element repugnicant leaders don;t want you to think.
They have you just where they want you.
Bear in mind that moderate republicans are also aghast at what has been done.
Here's more stuff you wont; bother to look at, or if you do, you'll just blow off, saying something moronic about the truth being less that what is claimed.
In reality it is probably far worse than what has been documented.
http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/07252008/profile.html
Now there are a lot of other links on that page, so be sure to check em out.
If you can still come back here in support of what's been done and still goes on, I pity you.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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You have no time for anything but work, but you were certain the people being held in Gitmo were bad guys. hahahahahahaha.. Where did you get that information? The coffee clutch?
You are too funny. Your ego is gigantic.
Oh well, I'm with dirt. I doubt you read any of this, or if you do, you will skim it and then not understand. Bah...
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Oooooh, now your feelings will be hurt and you will say something like " well we can't all be as smart as you " blah blah blah. Except you expect all Americans to be as smart as you when it comes to food choices and the incessant advertising. You feel free to diss others for not being able to discriminate as well as you. Well now the shoe is on the other foot. Bleh
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Hahaha.. What did I tell you?
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Mtnmun
Trad climber
Top of the Mountain Mun
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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I'm sorry Lois. Sometimes my ego gets the better of me. Laughing at your ignorance is wrong. Rome flew high for awhile. Then it burned because of arrogance. You are flying high Lois and you are arrogant about it. The arrogance of your ego is obvious.
How do I know? Because I was as arrogant as you. I probably still am. I know I know. You laugh at the probably.
You can wake up to the arrogance of your ego. I hope that you do because the consequences of not waking up are not good. Remember, Rome flew high for a time.
I take this seriously because I believe with all of my heart that torture is wrong. We have tortured people and are still torturing. This is a corruption that could destroy America if we do not overcome it. I would rather not see America destroyed.
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