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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jul 27, 2008 - 12:59pm PT
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Those images are quite a juxtaposition Gonzo!
Maybe God, or chance, has a sense of humor!
or photoshop
Peace
Karl
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Jul 27, 2008 - 11:47pm PT
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KARL WROTE:
"If you take a strictly scientific, materialistic view of nature and consciousness, then intelligence is just the result of evolution refining the interaction of physical, chemical processes.
Seems to me, if you believe that, you have to believe in intelligent creation, since the formation of the universe, including life and us, would be a similar process of the interaction of physical, chemical processes."
You want to explain how you get from the first sentence to the second in logical terms?
It seems you are trying to claim that evolution of intelligence implies intelligent creation.
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 27, 2008 - 11:58pm PT
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A tiny mosquito flew in the sky that landed on the dirtineye.
He started to itch and scratched.
It is such a simple thing to see and understand.
That love comes from our heart .....
Then the "learned" men came and told us it's not.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jul 28, 2008 - 12:24am PT
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Dirt wrote
"KARL WROTE:
"If you take a strictly scientific, materialistic view of nature and consciousness, then intelligence is just the result of evolution refining the interaction of physical, chemical processes.
Seems to me, if you believe that, you have to believe in intelligent creation, since the formation of the universe, including life and us, would be a similar process of the interaction of physical, chemical processes."
You want to explain how you get from the first sentence to the second in logical terms?
It seems you are trying to claim that evolution of intelligence implies intelligent creation. "
More or less... if intelligence in a human is merely the product of physical materials interacting in an ecosystem of information, how is that so different than the workings of the greater universe? Is intelligence only a human quality? Ant colonies are said to have a collective intelligence. What's that and how does that work? We always see things from a human perspective. Suppose the human brain was implanted in dolphins with no opposable thumbs or even limbs. What different kind of intelligence would we display and how would an observer know it?
Peace
Karl
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Jul 28, 2008 - 12:41am PT
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So Werner, you say that the sky landed on me-- what are you, chicken little?
Come back when you can write a coherent sentence.
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 28, 2008 - 12:52am PT
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Oh ....
So you finally admit you have no clue what you're talking about.
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Paul Martzen
Trad climber
Fresno
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Jul 28, 2008 - 02:13am PT
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Karl, it sounded like you questioned whether the universe is inert, dead, unliving, unintelligent.
I see several ways of thinking about this.
1) The universe is inert and unintelligent. We are intelligent. Therefore:
a) an intelligent force outside of the inert and unintelligent universe intervened for us and gave us intelligence. or
b) unintelligent processes somehow become intelligent under some unknown conditions, perhaps at some particularly high level of complexity.
2) The universe is unintelligent and we are also unintelligent. Meaning intelligence is some sort of illusion that inert, unintelligent processes are capable of having.
3) We are intelligent and are part of the universe, therefore intelligence must be a basic aspect of the universe, from which we arose.
I like the third idea for a lot of reasons. It encourages me to think about the nature of intelligence. How is my intelligence different and similar that that of other people, to that of other animals, to that of bugs and plants, to atoms and quarks. In what ways can an atom or a clump of dirt have intelligence, or life, or free choice, or any of the qualities that we think are valuable in ourselves?
I think science can give the impression that the physical world has no intelligence, life, freedom.... intangible something, because it is a lot easier to study aspects of the universe that are predominantly deterministic. We study the simple stuff first.
I can understand creationists objecting to the idea that intelligence and life can spontaneously arise from non intelligence and non life.
I don't think we have a very good understanding of what our own intelligence is or of what life is. I think we have much less grasp of the greater universe which some consider as being unintelligent and unliving.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jul 28, 2008 - 03:06am PT
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If you want to go a bit further down the rabbit hole, consider this...
Absolutely everything we know and experience of life and the world is filtered through our consciousness. Since every single perception we have comes to us through this medium, we really have no evidence that the world exists in the way we assume it does. It could be one amazingly complex and consistent dream for all we know.
After all, in a dream, other dream objects are relatively the same density as we are, and there appear to be other people with separate identities and histories, yet we created them. The world could easily be the dream of God.
Sounds farfetched but remember, according to science, in a black hole, the entire mass of the earth could be compressed smaller than a tennis ball. The world around us isn't as dense as we perceive it to be at all.
Time and space, according to science, don't exist in the way we perceive them either.
The world is not as we see it. We've just become domesticated by our assumptions and routines.
I don't think fundamentalist creationists have it right, but I think the arrogance of science is way off too. Things are mysterious, even though we try to grasp at order for the sake of our sanity.
Peace
karl
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Jul 28, 2008 - 09:32am PT
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Intelligence, or consciousness, is a product of organic chemistry. There is no known intelligence or consciousness in a black hole, or a supernova, though they are necessary for life and intelligence to evolve. Attributing anthropocentric attributes to inorganic entities is how this god bullshit all got started in the first place.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jul 28, 2008 - 10:50am PT
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"Intelligence, or consciousness, is a product of organic chemistry. There is no known intelligence or consciousness in a black hole, or a supernova, though they are necessary for life and intelligence to evolve. Attributing anthropocentric attributes to inorganic entities is how this god bullshit all got started in the first place."
Actually, these are all anthropocentric assumptions on your part. You have no idea how consciousness might exist outside of the mechanisms of organic chemistry and if intelligence can manifest through the vehicle of chemical interactions, who is to say it can't manifest through other chemical or electrical interactions as well?
By the standards of strict materialism, computers may eventually have a more refined awareness than we do and we'll have to afford them "human" rights. Stuff is stuff right?
We humans don't know squat and assume we're the center of the universe and the only important or valid intelligence of the cosmos. That's pretty arrogant for a species that has so recently evolved from apes and a few hundred years ago had a whole different set of completely different, but equally sure, beliefs.
Consciousness, is far beyond a chemical interaction. Being conscious yourself should give you some insight into the miracle of it. Consciousness is all we know and experience. Science, chemistry and our belief in anything verifiably have arisen and exist within consciousness. You absolutely can't prove this world isn't some kind of dream and then the whole world is basically built of consciousness.
Peace
Karl
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Jul 28, 2008 - 11:54am PT
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" Author:
WBraun
climber
From:
Oh ....
So you finally admit you have no clue what you're talking about."
NOOO, but you have left a colossal clue that you can't even make a coherent sentence in English, much less make a logical argument.
Why don't you just say you believe what you believe cause you want to, regardless of any evidence or argument an nothing will ever change your mind?
You could make a case for that.
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Jul 28, 2008 - 12:13pm PT
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Dingbat,
You seem to be obsessed with buttplugs lately.
Learn another word, it will be good for you.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jul 28, 2008 - 12:39pm PT
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Yes, skip, but does Truth come in ANY forum?
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 28, 2008 - 01:05pm PT
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No No no
Proof positive exists.
Mosquito lands on dirtineye's head and draws blood. That's intelligence.
That intelligence has to come from somewhere "originally".
From the Supreme intelligence.
Then dirtineye gets intelligence to figure out how to combat that pesky mosquito (me) ... hee hee hee
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Floyd Hayes
Trad climber
Hidden Valley Lake, CA
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Jul 28, 2008 - 01:11pm PT
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I have personally heard some rather incredible stories from Christians I've known quite well, stories of personal intervention in their lives that defy explanation, and because I know the individuals well it's hard for me to accept that the stories were mere lies or coincidences. I'll relate one of my own.
Feeling a bit jilted about a gal who I had a crush on many years ago, I wandered alone in a very large athletic field (with three softball fields) one night and asked God out loud whether a particular gal was the right one for me. Immediately I heard a loud "No!" The voice sounded like it came from nearby. Astonished, I looked around me but I was definitely all alone (there was some light from buildings near the fields). It was NOT the answer I wanted, I did NOT want to believe it was true, and I walked home feeling dejected.
A few years later I was heading back home for Christmas break. Still doubting the voice I heard that night, I prayed that if the gal gave me a phone call it would be a sign that she was the right one. After a week or so I finally decided to call her as a hint to let her know I was in town, but her brother started teasing her and she abruptly hung up the phone. It was a very rude act, of course, and I was so happy knowing she was going to call back to apologize, for we were still good friends. But to my chagrin she didn't. I finally accepted it as an answer to prayer.
In retrospect she was definitely the wrong one and my wife of 20 years has been fantastic.
Every day I question the existence of God. Maybe those of you who claim there is a God are right, yet I still remember hearing that voice, plus there have been many other events in my life that convince me not to abandon hope in a personal redeemer. I doubt anybody will ever find God unless they heed the advice of Jeremiah 29:13: "And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart." It won't happen unless you genuinely search with all of your heart.
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Jul 28, 2008 - 01:16pm PT
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"WBraun
climber
From:
No No no
Proof positive exists."
OK demonstrate.
"Mosquito lands on dirtineye's head and draws blood. That's intelligence."
Prove it please. Your second sentence does not follow from your first sentence.
"That intelligence has to come from somewhere "originally"."
Maybe so, but first you have to show that it is indeed intelligence, and you have not done that, so anything you say that depends on your prior unsupported unproven statements is suspect.
"From the Supreme intelligence. "
This is just a non sequitur plain and simple.
Your arguments are full of holes. to support the idea of the holy logically, you need to make unholy arguments, ROTFLMAO!
Lois: Not to worry, I am sure Dingbat washes his buttplug carefully after every use. If indeed he ever removes it, which appears to be somewhat doubtful on close examination.
I do find that he relies on the buttplug accolade more and more to make his life simpler as he gets older. Old foggies have a hard time keeping up and need for things to be simple. Pretty soon all posts from dingbat will consist of that one word, "buttplug", as he fall deeper and deeper into early onset alzheimers.
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Floyd Hayes
Trad climber
Hidden Valley Lake, CA
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Jul 28, 2008 - 01:37pm PT
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LEB, I don't have all the answers. I've never seen a ghost.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Jul 28, 2008 - 02:10pm PT
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Karl Baba
"Intelligence, or consciousness, is a product of organic chemistry. There is no known intelligence or consciousness in a black hole, or a supernova, though they are necessary for life and intelligence to evolve. Attributing anthropocentric attributes to inorganic entities is how this god bullshit all got started in the first place."
Actually, these are all anthropocentric assumptions on your part. You have no idea how consciousness might exist outside of the mechanisms of organic chemistry and if intelligence can manifest through the vehicle of chemical interactions, who is to say it can't manifest through other chemical or electrical interactions as well?
No one, but chemistry is chemistry and electricity is electricity. Before we knew what they were, they were magic too. Today there's this stuff, or non-stuff we call dark matter and dark energy. All your gods might be hiding there, but more likely it's just a bunch of stuff that has evolved in ways we still can't imagine and maybe can't even comprehend... altough the fact that we're on to them seems to indicate that we can.
By the standards of strict materialism, computers may eventually have a more refined awareness than we do and we'll have to afford them "human" rights. Stuff is stuff right?
There's a lot of speculation about that, obviously.
We humans don't know squat...
Awwwww. You sure about that?
...and assume we're the center of the universe and the only important or valid intelligence of the cosmos....
Only religious bigots assume that these days.
That's pretty arrogant for a species that has so recently evolved from apes and a few hundred years ago had a whole different set of completely different, but equally sure, beliefs.
Science constantly revises. It keeps the degree programs going.
Consciousness, is far beyond a chemical interaction. Being conscious yourself should give you some insight into the miracle of it. Consciousness is all we know and experience. Science, chemistry and our belief in anything verifiably have arisen and exist within consciousness. You absolutely can't prove this world isn't some kind of dream and then the whole world is basically built of consciousness.
Can't ever prove a negative. Maybe it's like in the Matrix.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Jul 28, 2008 - 02:21pm PT
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skipt
"There is no known intelligence or consciousness in a black hole, or a supernova, though they are necessary for life and intelligence to evolve. Attributing anthropocentric attributes to inorganic entities is how this god bullshit all got started in the first place."
Hmmmmm....
>So let me see if I have this right. If WE admittedly DON'T KNOW of any intelligence or consciousness in something then we can with absolute knowledge say it doesn't exist.
Uhhhh, no.
>Or even more so, say it doesn't exist in the creation of it.
What?
>Sounds to me like this is the true leap of faith.
That's called a straw man argument, no one can prove that God, or fairies, or whatnot don't exist, even "in the cration of it." We can say that there is no evidence to support the idea of these things existing. Show me the creator. Show me trace evidence of the creator, even. No such evidence exists. The universe is what it is, but if it was "designed" to be this way, then what designed the designer?
As for "Attributing anthropocentric attributes to inorganic entities..." and claiming it as the basis for religion I think you show a serious deficiency in knowing what religion is all about. You need to try again.
Man made God in his own image. You try again. :)
You ever notice that all of these "arm chair" scientists want nothing to do with all the wrong headed scientific claims made throughout the ages but want to use other's history to make their own point?
Science is open to revision. This is what the God delusion tricks you into misunderstanding. All those wrong headed theories you seem to know something about were disproven by other scientists, because it's an open-ended pursuit. Unlike religious dogma, which claims to be infallible despite its own long record of screw ups.
Kinda' odd, don't you think?
Yup.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jul 28, 2008 - 02:31pm PT
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Evolution. Evilution. Argument from design. Creation. Creation "science". god. Atheism. Agnosticism. Separation of church and state. Real problems facing the U.S. and the world.
See you all in a few hundred posts.
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