Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
|
|
|
Jun 12, 2008 - 04:10pm PT
|
"...have all completed studies and concluded that there is no evidence that DU causes cancer"
how long did they say that about smoking?
how long had DU been used in weapons?
so how long has exposure been documented?
since google will (apparently) offer you such diffinative scientific info:
what was/is the cause of gulf war syndrome?
we were discussing the use of the term "tons" (of DU) and i commented on your incredulous reaction to the use of that word.
you are now changing the subject...
(don't look away, look inside)
|
|
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
|
Jun 12, 2008 - 04:42pm PT
|
Quick google from
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article9322.htm
"The US and UK troops in the attacks on Iraq that started on 21 March 2001 used DU weapons during the battles at various places in Iraq. The truth of the use of DU weapons by US troop was verified and admitted by Brigadier General Brooks in a press briefing on 26 March of the same year when he said, "DU bombs had been used."
Michael Kilpatrick, Deputy Director of Deployment Health Support in the Office of the Assistant Secretary of Defense for Health Affairs, at a forum at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology on 6 March 2004, said, "The Army fired and used from tanks and armored vehicle 24 tons or less of DU bombs, and the Air Force, 10 tons or less of DU bombs from A-10 planes. These, when combined, would be equivalent to 115 tons of metallic uranium.
Also, before the outbreak of the war, on 15 March 2003, in a press briefing at the Department of Defense, Colonel Naughton, stated that "Abrams tanks had been loaded with DU bombshells," and "so were A-10 planes" because "there was not other choice. Witnesses had repeatedly seen civilian facilities being targeted by A- 10 planes starting with Iraq's Planning Ministry during the aerial bombing of Baghdad. Report on the investigation conducted by Scott Peterson, as a matter of fact, corroborated the statement given by Colonel Naugton at the above-mentioned press briefing. Abrams tanks were the main battle tanks used in the ground assault of Iraq. It is, therefore, highly probable that aside from the facts already verified, the US Armed Forces has used in large quantity DU weapons, even exceeding the reported volume, in all areas of offensive operations in Iraq, even at densely populated areas, particularly Baghdad, Basra, etc."
...."3. Dreadful Negative Effects of Depleted Uranium Weapons on the Human Body
Once the uranium particles are inhaled into the body, the particles attach first to the trachea and the respiratory system. As the particles are practically insoluble, they are difficult to dissolve in the blood, and stay there for a long period of time. Eventually these clinging particles continue to expose the neighboring organs to radiation. By that, they cause the cell and the gene to go into some transformation, and cause cancers, leukemia, lymphoma, congenital disorders and defects. Then, gradually, they are absorbed into the blood and lymph, and cause various illnesses and damages to the whole body. Also, aside from inhalation, they get into the body and enter the bloodstream by oral ingestion and through wounds. This kind of very dangerous weapons are being diffused in large quantity all over Iraq by the US and British troops. Not only during the war, but also after the war, and an unimaginable length of time of 4.5 billion years hereafter, the people of Iraq will have to bear the burden of living in this vast polluted land and learn how to survive with this grim reality. The British and US troops, at the instance that they drop DU weapons, do not just snatch away precious lives but cause the Iraqis further and eternal miseries...."
"...During the Gulf War in January 1991, the US Armed Forces dropped 320 tons of depleted uranium weapons on Iraq. Since after the war, there has been a high incidence of strange phenomenon not seen in Iraq before the war. There have been several incidences of such phenomenon as several members of one family developing cancer, or one patient having several types of cancer, etc., cancer that spreads fast, the outbreak of infectious diseases due to fast spreading cancer, leukemia, aplastic anemia, and malignant tumor, and immunodeficiency, massive herpes, and herpes zoster pain, symptoms resembling AIDS, syndrome due to liver and kidney dysfunction, hereditary dysphasia (hereditary damage) due to gene defects. Children, especially infants, who cannot fight back and are blameless, have become the number one victims of this war. The southern City of Basra, which is near the battleground of the Gulf War, has been very seriously damaged, and according to a doctor at the Basra Educational Hospital, the number of people who have succumbed to cancer rose from 34 in 1988 prior to the Gulf War to the astonishing figure of 603 in 2001 that was 17 times larger...."
It's worth reading the whole link but didn't want to bomb it all here. Iraq is screwed for thousands of years in many places due to our DU bombardment.
peace
Karl
|
|
kev
climber
CA
|
|
|
Jun 12, 2008 - 04:46pm PT
|
Karl, I'll look at your post tomorrow. Thanks for actually having what appears to be citations!
I'll have to get back to you guys tomorrow, i'm off to go play on some sandstone....Someones gotta do it - the rock doesn't climb itself.
kev
Ok i'm editing this before I go.
Matt, that was my point it's easy to find whatever you want on the web. I'm not claiming that my quote is accurate (it came from a gov site so of course it's biased), just that the suggestion that I should google something and accept it as accurate.
It's the same thing with the global warming issue. People on the right see it one way (they claim it isn't happening) people on the left claim that the earth is about to fall apart. Truth be the information we have is based on relatively few years of data and models involving complex mathematics (read as Navier Stokes plus other beautiful uglyness). It's clear that something is changing, how, why, is it normal or not, what the consequences are, etc, are all different question. But people still claim they are right when they truely don't know.
Don't get me wrong - covering ones ass until the problem is understood would be wise, but saying X or Y is happening when we really don't know is crap. Just like making unsupportable claims is crap. The problem with many arguments here is that, at least in the scientific areas, there isn't consensus about what is going on. Sure DU might be really bad and so until that is understood perhaps it should be avoided in general but to claim that it is bad when there is plenty of conflicting info about it is wrong as well.
I believe that the uninhabitable claim is wrong (notice I said believe, and I have NEVER stated an opinion about whether I agree or disagree with the war, also perhaps to do this properly we need a few definitions so we are all talking about the same things). I do not have the time or energy to devote to researching this. I am tired of are people making claims that they cannot support or don't support. It's like talking to a bunch of used car salesmen. If you tell me something controversial you'd better be able to convince me to believe you with overwhelming respected evidence and analysis.
My gripe about 'tons' was it was yet another claim being tossed around. You said I switched from tons to DU, and yes I did because if it was tons of non DU shell you wouldn't have had a problem with the environment so your issue was actually with the DU, neither of which did you give me any reason to believe are you an expert nuclear energy or weapons? I doubt it so you need to support your claims. Why not try to convince people about that which you believe rather than spray blindly about it's truth???
ok now i'm gonna climb
|
|
L
climber
The right side of the tracks but in the wrong town
|
|
|
Jun 12, 2008 - 04:54pm PT
|
Heeeeyyy Kris,
Did it sound like I was flaming you??? My sincerest apologies if it did! I get a bit passionate about things like killing people and animals, and stupid wars which no one wins, but I had no intention of starting a war right here. :-) Especially not with someone I like quite a lot.
My point in responding to your post was this: We "foreign interests" are there in our tanks and uniforms, with supposedly "God on our side", doing all these great things that are supposed to help Iran become a democracy, and people are dying. The terrorists, who actually lived there before all this strife, are there in their rags doing what they think they need to do to get their country back, and people are dying.
When the end result is so many people dying, and there's so much confusion as to why, is it really that easy to label one good and one bad?
I mean, Americans were "terrorists" before the war that gave us our independence.
Anyhoooo, no disrespect meant. Hope all is well over on your side of the mountains.
|
|
Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
|
|
|
Jun 12, 2008 - 04:56pm PT
|
L writes: doing all these great things that are supposed to help Iran become a democracy
a slip L? or a look into the crystal ball?
|
|
L
climber
The right side of the tracks but in the wrong town
|
|
|
Jun 12, 2008 - 04:59pm PT
|
Russ, Russ, Russ....You don't wanna climb in that OW, do ya? :-)
|
|
Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, Ca
|
|
|
Jun 12, 2008 - 05:36pm PT
|
Heeeey Laura,
I felt flamed knott. Just wanted to avoid escalation. Oh, and things are going reasonably well on my side of the mountains...
But of course just to keep it interesting I must point out that Americans did not use children as suicide bombers against British civilians during our revolution. Of course the history of those times is blemished by that slavery business (but we found our way out of that too in the end.)
I still have hope for USA (and knott beause god is on our side, either.)
|
|
L
climber
The right side of the tracks but in the wrong town
|
|
|
Jun 12, 2008 - 06:01pm PT
|
I'm with you, Kris.
I love this place. I've lived overseas and still think this is the best place on Earth...with so much potential for doing good.
A little OT, but I've been wondering how you're doing since the brain-thing. Sounds like miracles are/were happening in your life right and left.
|
|
Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, Ca
|
|
|
Jun 12, 2008 - 06:15pm PT
|
Thanks L.
It's kind of weird having something be so seriously wrong and at the same time feeling so very fortunate. Lucky me! After some of the news I was getting this time last year compared to how things are turning out now, I feel a bit like someone who got dragged out in front of a firing squad and the f*ckers all missed :-)
I am jamming right now to get packed up for another climbing escapade, but if your ST email is good, I'll send you a little synopsis of the whole thing in a few days...
|
|
L
climber
The right side of the tracks but in the wrong town
|
|
|
Jun 12, 2008 - 06:32pm PT
|
It's good, Kris. Would love to hear.
Cap'n...just for you:
War, huh, yeah
What is it good for
Absolutely nothing
Uh-huh
War, huh, yeah
What is it good for
Absolutely nothing
Say it again, y'all
War, huh, good God
What is it good for
Absolutely nothing
Listen to me
Ohhh, war, I despise
Because it means destruction
Of innocent lives
War means tears
To thousands of mothers eyes
When their sons go to fight
And lose their lives
I said, war, huh
Good God, y'all
What is it good for
Absolutely nothing
Say it again
War, whoa, Lord
What is it good for
Absolutely nothing
Listen to me
War, it ain't nothing
But a heartbreaker
War, friend only to the undertaker
Ooooh, war
It's an enemy to all mankind
The point of war blows my mind
War has caused unrest
Within the younger generation
Induction then destruction
Who wants to die
Aaaaah, war-huh
Good God y'all
What is it good for
Absolutely nothing
Say it, say it, say it
War, huh
What is it good for
Absolutely nothing
Listen to me
War, huh, yeah
What is it good for
Absolutely nothing
Uh-huh
War, huh, yeah
What is it good for
Absolutely nothing
Say it again y'all
War, huh, good God
What is it good for
Absolutely nothing
Listen to me
War, it ain't nothing but a heartbreaker
War, it's got one friend
That's the undertaker
Ooooh, war, has shattered
Many a young mans dreams
Made him disabled, bitter and mean
Life is much to short and precious
To spend fighting wars these days
War can't give life
It can only take it away
Ooooh, war, huh
Good God y'all
What is it good for
Absolutely nothing
Say it again
War, whoa, Lord
What is it good for
Absolutely nothing
Listen to me
War, it ain't nothing but a heartbreaker
War, friend only to the undertaker
Peace, love and understanding
Tell me, is there no place for them today
They say we must fight to keep our freedom
But Lord knows there's got to be a better way
Ooooooh, war, huh
Good God y'all
What is it good for
You tell me
Say it, say it, say it, say it
War, huh
Good God y'all
What is it good for
Stand up and shout it
Nothing
Are we back on course now? ;-)
|
|
SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
|
|
|
Jun 12, 2008 - 06:32pm PT
|
Nice stuff, as usual, Karl.
I'd believe the right wing Rand corporation about as far as I could throw them. What is it about 'there's lies, damn lies,
and statistics'.
Rand Corp is great with statistics.
|
|
philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
|
|
|
Jun 12, 2008 - 08:12pm PT
|
Kev said " I do not have the time or energy to devote to researching this. I am tired of are people making claims that they cannot support or don't support".
So let me get this straight you want unbiased documentation yet you forward thouroughly biased documentation. You want all of us to do your research but you don't want to take time to do it yourself.
That sounds like a tool in my book.
|
|
Dogtown Climber
Trad climber
The Idyllwild City dump
|
|
|
Jun 13, 2008 - 12:44am PT
|
3 cheers for the red white & blue, Send all dune coons to hell.
Dogtown.
|
|
Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
|
|
|
Jun 13, 2008 - 12:51am PT
|
|
|
originalpmac
Trad climber
|
|
|
Jun 13, 2008 - 12:55am PT
|
"dune coons?!!!" you racist f#ck! Why not send all the black people while we are at it, maybe some mexicans, italians, f*#k it some chinese, they are all different, f*#k em. No wait let me rephrase, f*#k you.
|
|
Sfinney
Trad climber
New Zealand
|
|
|
Jun 13, 2008 - 02:43pm PT
|
Dear Bryan,
I had the pleasure of meeting your wonderful and amazing LATE great uncle- NED Gillette. I truly don't believe that he would have approved! God rest his soul- he did not deserve his fate, nor do the Iraqi people deserve this fate.
To answer Matt comments- "You must be a rich fat white American with little or no exposure to people of color, people of other cultures, people of other religions, etc.
(I really feel sorry for you (and the poor white trash family/community that you no doubt come from), all you get to appreciate in this world is whatever it is that you know something about already, but not all the wonderful things and peoples and cultures and traditions that you know little or nothing about)."
Yes, unlike most of us how have had to WORK are entire life, pay mortgages and raise future rope guns! Bryan has lived a true TRUST FUND life, the Gillette family trust. Born and raised in a VERY affluent area. NED Gillette, choose to Explore and meet the wonderful people and challenges in this beautiful world.
Bryan wallows in these VERY ugly, distorted views, in his shallow world. OPEN up your eyes and heart Bryan, and go live life.
|
|
bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
|
|
|
Jun 13, 2008 - 02:50pm PT
|
Russ, I don't know where you find that stuff, but I betcha that's what Riley looks like during an Obama speech!
hilarious.
|
|
Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
|
|
|
Jun 13, 2008 - 02:55pm PT
|
let's see, i wonder what the odds are of that poor fat kid being the offspring of some middle american conservative type vs. some left wing vegan hippie...
edit-
hey no kiddin, i didn't know that about mr. minerals.
say, if i take back all the honest things i said about you up thread, you think i could score a couple of week long ski passes for vail next season? hook a brotha up?
...how about some free razors at least?
|
|
Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
|
|
|
Jun 13, 2008 - 03:11pm PT
|
why don't you return phone calls?
=)
|
|
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
|
Jun 13, 2008 - 03:19pm PT
|
Fatty wrote
"Karl,
Hate to challenge a few of your facts, but...............thats tons of bombs, not necessarily the amount of DU. Much of the weight of a bomb is not DU. Better find a more acurate source. "
Come on Fatty, you're Happy to challenge my facts (which are enough to give folks an idea of what's up) Show us your own facts if you think they'll make a difference.
DU is super heavy and added to these bomb cause it's super dense and helps punch through armor and bunkers. My facts are enough to establish the question that indeed TONS of DU has been dropped on Iraq, and that it's radioactive (at low levels but in micro-inhaleable levels) for millions of years.
Peace
karl
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!