Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
David Nelson
climber
San Francisco
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 17, 2005 - 05:14pm PT
|
Lambone, said like a man who takes responsibility for his own actions. I think it is all square.
I know we all were rather worked up about the whole storm, parties at risk, and the deaths. I sure was. Been on that route, hope to be on more. That is why I started this thread: what can I learn that might keep me alive? I am not interested in criticising anyone but myself. When the thread turned to criticising YOSAR, I was surprised.
Werner is pretty solid. He has said many times that he does not mind questions, that's how we learn. You have to be pretty secure in your decisions when you are willing to be second-guessed after the fact by people who were not there. Hopefully, the entire SuperTopo community has learned some things. Which leads me to something I suggested last October to Chris Mac.
The best way to solidify these lessons is for Chris to create an area on the homepage or on a page where newbies will look, and post a link to the FOYOSAR analysis and hopefully post an essay by Link or Werner or some other respected greybeard (sorry, guys) in the vein of John Dill's essay. To have the Japanese party of 20 years ago freeze to death is bad enough, to have a second party (and, oddly enough, Japanese) freeze in the same area is really frustrating. We cannot prevent all accidents, but there are some that we should be able to decrease. ST is a great resource for this. Not many newbies read Accidents in North American Mountaineering, and so won't read Link's report. Not many newbies will have read Rock and Ice of this month. However, I would bet that there is not a newbie who goes up El Cap who has not read ST. This is where it needs to get posted. How about it, Chris?
|
|
yosarmike
Mountain climber
CA
|
|
|
Feb 17, 2005 - 11:54pm PT
|
No problem for FOYOSAR to link to ST if that seems like the way to go. I think there'll be some more material coming out on the complex of rescues -- both technical analysis and description -- including a multi-media piece by Brandon Latham which really captures the incident.
|
|
David Nelson
climber
San Francisco
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 20, 2005 - 12:47pm PT
|
I agree that Accidents in North American Mountaineering is important reading for climbers. That is not the point. The point is that we need to put information where newbies can run across it in their early days, as they search for information. They will not do it by going to a library looking for old mountaineering mags. They will do it by surfing the net. Almost all of them will find SuperTopo, so the information must be there, or at least links to the information must be there, and placed in a prominent place so that they will find it.
Another reason is needs to be here. The net allows us unlimited space and color, which the mags do not. I have been having this conversation both off-line (old fashioned telephone) and by email with some of the FOYOSAR guys. It is not new news that we are seeing a historical large shift in how information is disseminated. I have been pushing this change in my professional journal, the Journal of Hand Surgery, and see the change (and the turmoil that accompanies it) in all scientific publishing. The net is faster, cheaper, more widely available, and has capabilities that print media do not. And the change is happening. (One example: the New England Journal of Medicine has decided to publish three articles on COX-2 inhibitors [a class of arthritis and pain drugs in the news because they have a risk of heart attacks] and two editorials, in next month's edition; they decided that they were so important, they did not want to wait until the print version came out, so they posted them online and made them available to anyone, even without a subscription to their print journal.)
The formal report in ANAM will be valuable, and needs to be archived where future researchers can find it. That is what print does well.
But the online version can have a less formal format, interviews, unlimited color, unlimited (almost) space, and with links to threads on ST, will be a dynamic and living document. Can't do that with print.
I am not against print. I am on the editorial board for my professional print journal. I just love the capabilities of the net to get the job done better.
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Feb 20, 2005 - 01:52pm PT
|
A very good point David. Just an example to your point.
The net is a super research monster. I've educated myself on many subjects very quickly especially my dabbling in embedded microcontroller design. I had almost no understanding of the subject and was able to get 98% of the knowledge off the net very quickly for my projects.
|
|
Link
Trad climber
Yosemite, CA
|
|
|
Feb 20, 2005 - 05:39pm PT
|
I think everyone agrees: get dependable well written safety information out to climbers in the most effective way possible. Books are nice, but the web is better. Let’s do both.
It will take some time, but rest assured that we’re working on it. Over the last few years we (NPS folks) have made an effort to post information about climbing accidents as often as possible, but that effort has been somewhat sporadic: I’ve posted many brief write-ups on this site, we’ve posted some write ups on the YOSAR website, and now the Friends of YOSAR is posting links as well. Hopefully we’ll have a clear system nailed down in the next year so people can dependably get accurate and timely information about recent accidents.
In the mean time we’ll do our best to post ANAM write-ups here (or links to them) as soon as possible.
Cheers,
-Link
|
|
David Nelson
climber
San Francisco
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 22, 2005 - 05:07pm PT
|
Thanks, Link. Let's be sure to use the advantages of the net, which include unlimited ability to post color pictures and hyperlinks. I have urged Chris Mac to place a link on the homepage of ST to a page on his site, which can contain some data and links to other pages, such as the YOSAR site, FOYOSAR site, and to discussion threads that have further information. I am not trying to promote myself or ST, just make sure that the information is information rich and easily accessible/searchable.
The horror of the Japanese team's death is only magnified by the fact that it happened before. I think if that team had more information, they might have made different decisions.
Thanks for all your work in this area, I know you are committed.
PS I feel that we have a "link" in that my middle name is Lincoln!
|
|
ricardo
Gym climber
San Francisco, CA
|
|
|
Feb 22, 2005 - 06:27pm PT
|
earlier on this thread someone mentioned CIR's (Incident Reports) ..
.. are these public records .. does anyone know who to contact to request one ..
|
|
yosarmike
Mountain climber
CA
|
|
|
Feb 22, 2005 - 08:11pm PT
|
I mentioned "critical incident reports." I got the acronym wrong -- It's CASE Incident Reports. These are public records that are available through a FOIA request. Generally a note to the SAR office works. Keep in mind a couple of things: as these are partly accounting documents, and hence take a long time to close, and often dependent on the responsible ranger getting enough free time to do them, there can be major lag time. There isn't always, but there can be. Second, somebody has to find time to dig out the information, and that's extra work for a team that isn't exactly swamped with administrative support. As I said in my post, if you have a name and place -- like "El Cap," exact route not necessary -- and the date within a couple of years, e-mail me directly. I can send the summary data, and help out with getting the file if needed.
|
|
knighTrain
climber
|
|
|
Feb 23, 2005 - 07:36pm PT
|
Case Incident Reports tend not to be the panacea of information they might sound like. Although an occasional few contain nitty-gritty incident info, most are blow-by-blow accounts of what happened on the response side of things--when the report came in, when and what resources were sent out, what time everyone got back. Few CIRs contain analysis of the factors leading to the incident or other information that could fall under the preventative SAR umbrella.
That being said, having some facts is generally better than having none. I am posting information about recent rescues on the Friends of YOSAR site (www.friendsofyosar.org) that comes almost directly from CIRs, minus confidential patient information and uninteresting Gov-speak. Check in to the Rescues section periodically--I throw more up when I get the chance and I'm working my way back in time.
Meanwhile, the wheels are turning to provide the kind of climber-saving information and analysis that you call for, the type of info the CIRs tend to lack. Stay tuned.
|
|
David Nelson
climber
San Francisco
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 4, 2005 - 07:31pm PT
|
The total of the experience, gear, and grit that went into the rescues can be seen on the Friends of YOSAR site, where they have posted pictures from the rescue: http://www.friendsofyosar.org/rescues/rescuesIndex.html
Again, thanks to all who agonized over the decisions and to those who risked a lot to help the stranded climbers.
|
|
David Nelson
climber
San Francisco
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 4, 2005 - 07:52pm PT
|
Just got through looking at all the FOYOSAR pictures. Damn fine work. Got me to thinking: what have I done to help? Nuttin. So I sent in my check, to:
Friends of Yosemite Search & Rescue
PO BOX 611
Yosemite, CA 95389
How about you help these folks out, too? Send in something, even if it is only $5.
|
|
golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
|
|
I didnt have anything to do what what went on. Read about it in the magazine. But having bailed in questionable weather from up high I can relate.
YOSAR and those helping last fall...Thanks! Condolences to friends and family.
|
|
David Nelson
climber
San Francisco
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 8, 2005 - 09:55pm PT
|
I expected a little more response from the List when I urged you all to donate. Take a little action for all of us Yosemite climbers: the rescuers you support might just bail your lil' ol' a$$ out some time. I sent in my bucks. Please donate, Werner and Link and Dill and the rest deserve our support. Hell, YOUR support. The NPS gives them squat. Donate and urge the rest of the ST community to do so.
|
|
David Nelson
climber
San Francisco
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 8, 2005 - 10:47pm PT
|
Wow. Just had a long talk with John Dill, head of YOSAR. They do an incredible amount of things for the climbing community, but get scant support from the NPS for anything outside their core duties. I did not realize it, but John's reports to Accidents in North American Mountaineering are all done on his "free" time (I called him at 7 pm and he was still on the job, putting equipment away from a training run, so his "free" time is rather rare), all the postings on Friends of YOSAR are done on their "free" time, etc. They really need financial support from the climbing community so that they can devote some serious time to placing information on the web for the climbing community. The FOYOSAR website has great potential to save the NPS money by PREVENTING accidents, and the web is the way for the information to get out to the newbies and other climbers, so YOSAR has the tools. They just need the bucks to make it happen. John is hoping that FOYOSAR will help in that direction, that the NPS will see the value in web-based information and support it, and that the American Alpine Club will support it, too. It will make John's job easier, convincing the powers that be that web-based information is powerful, if the climbing community will support it, with enthusiasm, data, and money.
John is doing his part and more. How about you doing yours? Send in some bucks to Friends of YOSAR, address above. (I don't get a cut, I just like supporting things I believe in. I have sent in my check, so the next move is yours.)
|
|
yosarmike
Mountain climber
CA
|
|
Thank you, David! We're just getting started, but I thought folks would like to know specifically where FOYOSAR is putting the money it raises. The plan for the website is to make it a valuable source of information, including rescues, for climbers and other Yosemite users as well -- hikers, rafters, and the great unwashed herd who come to the Valley every year, see people on the walls, etc., and are in some vague way in favor of us and wouldn't mind chipping in. That means a pretty big site which needs to be kept fresh. The great thing is that Nate, who has as a YOSAR intern been earning zippo, can get paid by us for being webmaster plus be in the Valley as a part of YOSAR. BTW, we're very interested in hearing your ideas about what regular features on the site would be useful.
The second project is the SAR cache "training room" which has multiple purposes, of which one is to provide our team a place to kick back a little between shifts on those holiday weekends when there are multiple incidents. The great thing about it is that the work was mostly done by SAR-siters Greg and Scott, "overseen" by Werner, so again we're getting a double pay-off: great new facility, support for team members.
Another project we're looking at is offering training for local SAR teams, with our YOSAR people getting support as instructors. And finally, we're working on ways to plug in with JTree and with other teams, both in the US and, for example, Nepal, for mutual support and technical exchange.
|
|
David Nelson
climber
San Francisco
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 15, 2005 - 09:48pm PT
|
YosarMike,
What are the plans for this spring and summer? Is there anything that you can let us know about, that people might be interested in joining?
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!