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Paulina
Trad climber
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Jan 10, 2008 - 03:34pm PT
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re: TradIsGood
Or, maybe, there is no god, and maybe there was some other kind of universe before this Big Bang, but we can't measure that by definition, right?
I was commenting on something that comes up time and again: that in a godless universe, there's no reason to ever do any good. Therefore, a god must exist. Or something to that effect. My point is: that kind of thinking is flawed: there's plenty of reason to do good without positing a deity.
re: GO and others with similar posts
Agreed. Any deity and any faith is outside the realm of science insofar as they don't make specific verifiable/falsifiable claims about the natural universe. Any explanation of natural phenomena is by the same reasoning outside the realm of theology.
So, as the Xians like to say, render unto Ceasar what is Ceasar's, and leave biology, astrophysics, and climate science to the professionals.
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John Moosie
climber
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Jan 10, 2008 - 03:35pm PT
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Cool Bob. She sounds like a blessing, but your wife doesn't explain my experience.
At least I don't think so. haha :-)
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bc
climber
Prescott, AZ
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Jan 10, 2008 - 03:44pm PT
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Jody's original post reminds of this...
The Riddle of Epicurus
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?
As for me, I'm an atheist concerning the religious names and descriptions that people have come up with to descibe the concept of a god (or gods). I do not think that anyone can know how such a being(s) thinks or what it requires of us (if anything). However, I'm agnostic as to whether such a being/thing/god actually exists. I suppose there is tiny chance that it does. Let's make that extremely tiny.
"We are all atheists about most of the gods that humanity has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further." Richard Dawkins.
bc
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TradIsGood
Recently unshackled climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Jan 10, 2008 - 03:54pm PT
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Paulina, I agree. And I thought of the example well before GO posted his game theory idea. No way to know if there is a god without defining one within some system.
And I fear any useful definition will either be faith based, tautological, or both - rendering it useless with respect to investigation.
Perhaps the richness of the complexity of our universe is far more interesting than the study of religion. And perhaps its study is simply beyond the capacity of too many?
GOD - an individual concept which explains all that the individual does not, and refuses to try, to understand. ;)
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Jan 10, 2008 - 03:54pm PT
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John wrote: Cool Bob. She sounds like a blessing, but your wife doesn't explain my experience.
At least I don't think so. haha :-)
Funny.
You haven't explained it...but it came from your mind. You thought them.
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scuffy b
climber
Stump with a backrest
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Jan 10, 2008 - 03:57pm PT
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Yes, Phantom X,
the B stands for spelling.
Which is bigger, gigantic or humungous?
Or maybe gargantuan?
By the way, we had a raspberry selection several years ago
which was nicknamed "Gargantua" followed a couple years later
by one nicknamed "Gargantuella" but unfortunately although huge
they were only so-so in flavor and shipping so they never made
it to the big show.
Or was it lateral instability that prompted this?
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Phantom X
Trad climber
Honeycomb Hideout
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Jan 10, 2008 - 04:03pm PT
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ZOIKS! Raspberries from OW?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jan 10, 2008 - 04:15pm PT
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'cosmogenesis'
I like the sound of that - may have to find a nice climb to go with that...
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scuffy b
climber
Stump with a backrest
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Jan 10, 2008 - 04:22pm PT
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Sorry about the lateral instability thing. I guess it could be
considered a Red Herring.
Did you know that Bruno has surfaced in the slab shoe thread?
Did Brian have to evacuate back in the days of scary fires?
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John Moosie
climber
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Jan 10, 2008 - 04:29pm PT
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"You haven't explained it...but it came from your mind. You thought them'
So in a middle of a rage, my mind was able to conjure love ?
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John Moosie
climber
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Jan 10, 2008 - 04:48pm PT
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"The Riddle of Epicurus
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?
As for me, I'm an atheist concerning the religious names and descriptions that people have come up with to descibe the concept of a god (or gods). I do not think that anyone can know how such a being(s) thinks or what it requires of us (if anything). However, I'm agnostic as to whether such a being/thing/god actually exists. I suppose there is tiny chance that it does. Let's make that extremely tiny."
..........................
"Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent."
This statement is not necessarily true. God is able to wipe all evil off this planet but he has given us dominion over the earth and therefore it is up to us to remove evil.
How ? Well certainly not by force, as force is the very essence of evil. Love is the only way to remove evil. Jesus said we must Love our enemies.
We are on this planet to learn how to be unconditional Love. To be Masters. To Be More of God.
God has free will to create what he wants. Free Will is God's gift to us so that we can be made in his image. If he took it away by not allowing us to make mistakes, then how would we have free will ? We couldn't. So the only way to BE like God, is to have free will even though free will creates the possibility that we will make mistakes, ( create evil ) and suffer the consequences of those mistakes.
But God did not leave us bereft with our mistakes. God has given us Grace by which we can correct our mistakes before the laws of the universe, (every action has an equal and opposite reaction. Also called Karma ) can come back and bite us.
It is complicated, yet simple. We are made in God's image, as the greatest gift to ourselves. But we must learn how to create without harming ourselves, which God would not do, or without harming others. Which God also would not do.
Our teacher is either our inner higher self, that still small voice that tells you not to drink that 3rd or 4th or 10th beer, OR the laws of the universe, Karma.
Which you choose to listen to determines the path of your life.
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Phantom X
Trad climber
Honeycomb Hideout
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Jan 10, 2008 - 04:50pm PT
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Red Herrings and Swim Fins is a match!
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Jan 10, 2008 - 04:58pm PT
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John wrote: "You haven't explained it...but it came from your mind. You thought them'
So in a middle of a rage, my mind was able to conjure love ?
Yes...but that may not be good enough for you.
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bc
climber
Prescott, AZ
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Jan 10, 2008 - 05:15pm PT
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John,
You take a very narrow view of the word "evil". Can we ever hope to stop the "evil" of all current or new diseases? Will we ever be able to anticipate and stop natural catastrophes? "Evil" comes in many forms, not just the many manmade types. Will love stop the next earthquake or tsunami and the many "evils" that they bring? Perhaps "horror" would be a better word.
bc
ps Do you really believe we have been given dominion over the earth???
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John Moosie
climber
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Jan 10, 2008 - 05:24pm PT
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BC, Yes to all of your questions about what is possible, including ridding the earth of stinging insects ( my personal pet peeve, haha... I don't like how they ruin beautiful place ).
We have dominion. We just haven't learned how to use it. There are physical laws and there are spiritual laws. The spiritual laws supercede the physical laws. But only if you learn to use them. To learn to use them, you must become them. As Paul said, we must put on the mind of Christ. Become the Christ. When you put on the mind of Christ, then you are born in the spirit and become spirit. In which case, you can override any seeming physical law.
You have a very narrow view of the possible.
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bc
climber
Prescott, AZ
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Jan 10, 2008 - 05:38pm PT
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John,
Good luck with that.
bc
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John Moosie
climber
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Jan 10, 2008 - 05:40pm PT
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A question and a comment for those who consider themselves to be materialist or scientists.
Science is beginning to understand that the consciousness of the scientist affects the outcomes of experiments. If this is true, then how will a scientist who does not believe in the possibility of God ever discover the existence of God ?
Could it be that science has not discovered God because the tool being used to discover God is unable or unwilling to find the Truth ? The " tool " being the mind of the scientist.
God will not be discovered by those who refuse to acknowledge the possibility. God is not subject to experimentation. If God were subject to repeatable experiments, then God would be mechanical. God is not mechanical. God is creative. The true essence of God is found through the heart.
You limit your results by the very nature of your experiments and by the nature of the experimenter.
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bc
climber
Prescott, AZ
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Jan 10, 2008 - 05:51pm PT
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John,
You are not assuming that all scientists are athiests are you? There are lots of believers out there in the scientific community. If god ever raises his head in an experiment (or heck, anywhere else for that matter) someone would be likely to catch it. So far the big guy has been pretty elusive. Like someone posted earlier, his possible existence is probably outside the realm of scientific inquiry.
bc
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John Moosie
climber
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Jan 10, 2008 - 06:05pm PT
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No BC, I was not assuming that all scientist are atheist. I do not see science as evil, or that belief in God means you can't believe in science. On some levels I am a scientist. My life is my experiment.
I just recognize that on this forum, most of those who call themselves scientist or materialist, do not believe in God because they haven't been able to prove Gods existence.
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