Dr. Piton's Ultimate Russian Aider Thread

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Moof

Big Wall climber

A cube at my soul sucking job in Oregon

Dec 16, 2007 - 09:46pm PT

Hey WC,

I only know you by reputation (by way of TP, aka WS [who by the way is already on the road to JT, woot!] from the Muir "incident" with the Canadian Assassin).

Anyway, I have sewn a bunch of other stuff, mostly for myself an a few partners. A lot of killer gear bags with 2" rolled webbing handles that are great for dragging up out of the depths of the haul bag, the russian aiders, lots of mods to existing gear like an extension collar on my budget haulbag, belay seat, a portaledge floor (still needs some tweaking and a fly), rope bags (similar to the A5 and Fish ones with the zip out bellows), etc. I really yearn for a bar tacker, but I get buy OK with just the single stitch industrial I have right now.

In my case I have no skill, and really had a rough time using standard aiders. I'm an engineer, so lack of coordination and physical strength are very familiar hassles for me, and they showed up in my second steps or higher. I've personally found the RA's to be much easier and fast for me to use. I've also had a few partners lust for pairs because they see me doing stuff they struggle with. Again this is not surprising, as I suck at aid climbing (well, all climbing) so I only attract partners who also mostly suck, and like good aid climbers (which we are in mentality only) we look for gear to overcome skill.

BTW, talking to WS/TP I can only start to understand the twisting and warping the Canadian Assassin has done to you mindset on walls. I hope someday you get back out there withthe right partner(s) and send with a smile on our face. The last time TP and I went out to attempt the Prow it really brought back some F'ed up mental trauma.

Holdplease2

Big Wall climber

Yosemite area

Dec 16, 2007 - 11:51pm PT

Hey WC:

My mom will appreciate the kindness. :)

I use the Yates wall ladders and love them. The Metolius ladders lack a spreader bar, so I'm always annoyed by crushing my hand and the nylon is hard on my fingers, as I don't climb gloves. Spreader bars are awesome, IMO. Also, the Metolius dont have the elastic under the steps for super easy jugging, cleaning, and hauling. I tape the ladders by the spreader bar due to excessive wear there. I am super-happy with them, until I hit sustained kidney-crushing high stepping during endurance nailing experiences. I'm just really hoping for a way to stand high in more comfort for extended periods, like awkward heading or beaking. We'll see...

I was hoping that by the time I'm 40, the resolution on digicams and bandwidth will be so good, I'll never miss the opportunity to truly skewer a nemesis. ;)

One of these days, over beersch somewhere, remind me to show you the photos of when I learned that adjustable aiders are just for jugging. But in the mean time...picture these things in combination: Hooks, a bouldering gym in Chicago, and a very angry marionette. Hopefully the RA's will go better than that, but you never know.

Wishing a you a great skiing season, WC, and affordable transmission repairs, if there is such a thing. See you on the walls when and if the time is right.

:)

-Kate.

Nefarius

Big Wall climber

Fresno, CA

Dec 17, 2007 - 02:43am PT

Pete - As far as the "wire" hooks. I tested those hooks quite a bit. For a number of days on various climbs. There's no problem with them or any probs getting them to hook into the rings. No need for bigger rings either. I *will* say, however, the rings I was using weren't all deformed, the way the Ti rings do. You can round the end of the hooks a bit and shape it, if you like. However, I didn't see any significant improvement. The width of the hooks is about equivalent to the Ruskie Hooks you had on your Trangos.

As for Demand:

Unfortunately, after making several pairs (prototypes) and testing the hell out of them, and with the research and all I did, I came to the same conclusion as Russ. I'm sure Russ has quite a bigger handle on the big wall market (supply/demand) than any of us. I mean, he's been making his living at this for a while.

Initially, I was pretty excited thinking I could make a small chunk of money with these things. Then, as time went on, I realized there is simply not a market for them. As Russ said, a small group of people excited about them on a forum is one thing. People shelling out their money for them is entirely different. And when you look at the small number of people buying climbing gear, and then realize how much smaller the group of big wall climbers within is, and THEN realize the incredibly smaller number of those that have the funds to spend on Ruskies, or are willing to give them a go, versus the traditional methods, you realize your work will be in vain.

Sure, you'd all make Pete and a small number of other folks extremely happy, but you aren't going down and buying your new Porsche (or even a used Toyota) off of RA sales.

I'm totally willing to help out the "cause", however. I think Moof thought I was simply holding out or maybe being a dick, but seriously it's more like "better things to do" and being too lazy to dig out my notes. I'll dig them out if you like. I'm not sure there's anything revolutionary in them though. Ruskies are Ruskies. The rest is just parts and semantics.

As far as other comments...

Well, Brian is right. They suck on low angle climbing. They seriously limit your reach, thus limiting your speed. They really shine on overhanging stuff however, and the "levering" action makes reaching high/top stepping quite comfortable. Also, to answer Brian's question - Yes, you can hook into the loops of cams, such as Aliens with them, quite easily. You can hook into the slings of other cams, as well. But you better be damn careful as the hooks do get rough edges and can abrade the slings. You can also, however, hook into the aid tree biner, which works quite well.

As far as the possible injuries... Well, dunno. I think you can get hurt with half the crap you use on a wall, so BFD. Go climbing and quit wanking. If you're that concerned, take up an indoor sport.

All of this being said, I finally agree with Ammon - freeing the walls, or what you can of them is it. The next step. It's kinda like chucking your rifle in favor of a bow and arrow for hunting. It's a progression. Needless to say, I haven't done much aid climbing in the last year or so, but rather am preparing for a couple of free (or mostly free) attempts on EC and have been working on the free game.

As far as Ammon's concern about hitting the rings with the hooks... Well, yeah, it's kind of a pain. I used the Ruskies for probably a total of 10+ long days over a period of time and while you *do* get better at it, I don't think you ever get as good (fast) as you can with ladders. The more you use your ladders and the better the ladders you use (read Kate's insightful post above about the Yates - they rock) the more efficient you get with them. You stop having to look down, pull them out to get your feet in them, etc. This never becomes the case with Ruskies. You have to fumble with them a lot. If you're on holiday and taking your time on the wall, then no big deal. If you're trying to go faster or doing a push, they'd only slow you down, tremendously. I couldn't imagine having used them on the couple of sub-day pushes I've done.

Anyway, I guess that sums up my feelings about them, why I decided not to undertake the cause any further, etc...

Moof

Big Wall climber

A cube at my soul sucking job in Oregon

Dec 17, 2007 - 11:58am PT

Nefarius said:

"All of this being said, I finally agree with Ammon - freeing the walls, or what you can of them is it. The next step. It's kinda like chucking your rifle in favor of a bow and arrow for hunting. It's a progression. Needless to say, I haven't done much aid climbing in the last year or so, but rather am preparing for a couple of free (or mostly free) attempts on EC and have been working on the free game. "

So to extend the analogy, chucking your bow and arrow for hand-to-hand would be like free soloing long offwidths?

Ammon

Big Wall climber

El Cap

Dec 17, 2007 - 12:18pm PT

I’m guilty of not reading any of the thread before I posted. Ha haa, good to hear from you WC.

Moof

Big Wall climber

A cube at my soul sucking job in Oregon

Dec 17, 2007 - 12:23pm PT

Well Ammon, the title and first post alone are plenty to invoke an immune response... You may be better off having missed most fo it.

I wonder if as a small school boy the Canadian Assassin scratched his manifesto into the bathroom stalls at school (complete with bold scratching).

Nefarius

Big Wall climber

Fresno, CA

Dec 17, 2007 - 12:34pm PT

"So to extend the analogy, chucking your bow and arrow for hand-to-hand would be like free soloing long offwidths?"

It's been known to happen, Moof. =)

'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber

like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?

Topic Author's Reply - Dec 18, 2007 - 12:06am PT

"Immune response?" Uh dude, nobody responded more than you. Maybe you should delete all your posts?

At least I can climb the Prow... [tee-hee]

Moof

Big Wall climber

A cube at my soul sucking job in Oregon

Dec 18, 2007 - 01:08am PT

I sent the Prow in good style. It was third time's a charm, but I sent. Round one my partner got cold and we bailed. Second attempt I got got fubar'd by a bailing soloist with a "Better Way" cluster f*ck clogging the works (poor dude couldn't even bail at a reasonable pace, you'd be proud), then I got the flue the second day. Really fun to drag a haul bag down while barely holding your lunch down. Third time we sent on time and under budget.

How's that double munter A5 jugging knot work again? The one with magically shortening tails?

Euroford

Trad climber

chicago

Dec 18, 2007 - 09:40am PT

very similar to an adjustable russian friction hitch, without the magic tails, which do have both advantages and disadvantages. dammit i've been looking everywhere for another one of those, forgot mine in rich's car before he sped off out west. if anybody bumps into that guy tell him i want it back!

Moof

Big Wall climber

A cube at my soul sucking job in Oregon

Dec 20, 2007 - 11:50pm PT

Rev 5:

The double pass buckles I got are perfect. Smaller than the CMI ones, but not wimpy. The cinch are just my personal preference, plenty burly, and great for on the fly adjustment and easy removal.

The wire hook's full 1" opening allowed me to use the thick webbing throughout, while the cliffhanger's hole on rev. 4 forced the thin webbing.

Anyone want a pair? Available in pimp theme as shown, or boring blue and red. Same price, $60, including shipping. You still gotta get your aid trees from Russ (his are 4/5 stars, my interpretation would be 2/5 stars and cost double).

WBraun

climber

Dec 20, 2007 - 11:57pm PT

You did a good job Moof.

Not that I want any, but it looks like excellent workmanship.

nick d

Trad climber

Dec 21, 2007 - 12:27am PT

"As far as the possible injuries... Well, dunno. I think you can get hurt with half the crap you use on a wall, so BFD. Go climbing and quit wanking. If you're that concerned, take up an indoor sport."

Yeah Werner. Get back indoors, where you belong! Oh wait, I need a rescue, because I am about to pass out from laughing so hard!

Paulina

Trad climber

Dec 21, 2007 - 01:15am PT

So these two guys from Moscow were talking to these four guys from Rostov in Camp 4 in September, saying "Did you notice how they all climb aid the old-fashioned way, with webbing ladders and stuff?!" They sounded really puzzled.

Moof, if I sent you two hooks much like the ones used in the new "russian russian aiders" system shown earlier in the thread (with both horizontal and vertical slots), could you make me a pair of stirrups in normal colors? How much would it cost? Just hypothetically...

Moof

Big Wall climber

A cube at my soul sucking job in Oregon

Dec 21, 2007 - 01:57am PT

Paulina,

The hook shown is pretty cheap. If you send me a Trango hook or equivalent that doesn't force me to do extra crazy stuff I'd knock $5 off to account in the change of material costs. These take me about 3-4 hours a pair to make plus about $25 in materials ($5 of hook, $10 of buckles, $10 of webbing). So at $60 a pair I'm asking ~$10/hour for my trouble, which for custom wall gear is pretty darn cheap (if you buy Russ' trees and my cuffs you are still $10 cheaper than the original Trango system).

Also bear in mind that Russ will also do custom stuff, usually prettier than I can, and he has a bartacker and much more experience doing this kinda stuff very fast. You might try him if you want to save a few bucks, but no promises (you might blow the savings bribing him with beers to even take the job, who knows).

Russ,

If you happen to drop into HVCG in the next couple weeks I'd love to give you a beer for the cool stuff you've made for me. I'll be near the space pod with a 90 lb white dog, and a green toyota tundra. Same crew HK hangs with (not sure if HK will be there?).

Werner,

Thanks! I built it, I kinda doubt they will come.

'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber

like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?

Topic Author's Reply - Dec 21, 2007 - 01:58am PT

Paulina, that's hilarious! Nice to meet you. You're back on the east coast now, da?

Paulina

Trad climber

Dec 21, 2007 - 03:17am PT

Sorry Moof, didn't notice your original price ($60). Very reasonable, of course. You know, I did ask Russ the same question and got a 'no can do'.

Pete, nice meeting you too. I'm back on the East Coast indeed (after a shorter stint in JTree) but already planning a skiing return to the Sierra. Maybe I should just move to CA.

'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber

like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?

Topic Author's Reply - Aug 18, 2008 - 05:32pm PT

Holy frig - it's been eight months since we talked about these things? Since then, I have had the opportunity to use and test two sets of Russian aiders, one made by Moof aka Seann Woolery, and the other by Theron Moses. So here is your Dr. Piton Review.

TRANGO RUSSKIES

As you know, they're not available any more, but they are the standard upon all which are compared. The design is nearly perfect, though the buckles suck and the webbing should be thicker.

One big problem with the Trango design you see below on my left foot is the position and type of buckle used to adjust the size of the footloop. The buckle is kind of "sharp" and can bite into your ankle, plus it can slip. You can see that I have duct taped the livin' bejeepers out of it, to keep it in the right position and to keep it from slipping, as well as to pad it where it rests against my ankle. The buckle is hidden under the blob of duct tape on the outside of my left foot.

The other problem with the Trango design is the chicken loop, which is merely a stretchy nylon strip that wraps around your ankle, and is secured with really crappy "velcro" which is not Velcro brand velcro. So I have to tape it up every morning with duct tape, which is a pain in the ass, and then take the duct tape off at the end of the day.

Note the position of the Trango hook, how it is attached to the cuff, and the triangular design of the footloop. Note especially now the apex of the triangle is pretty much right at the hook. All of this is virtually perfect. It's just that the webbing is kinda skimpy. But it works, hell yeah it works, better than anything else available.

Here's why.

MOOF'S RUSSKIES

Here you see Moof's design on my right leg, with Kong Block-Roll for scale. Incidentally, if you are looking to get one of these superb hauling devices, I will have some in stock in a few weeks with any luck, depending on how fast the Eye-talians are rowing across the Atlantic. [Last time they needed some whipping a la Ben Hur in the galleys] On my left leg is the traditional Trango design, with Wee-Wee the Big Wall Crab for scale.

Pros:

I climbed with Moof's Russkies for two days on South Seas on El Cap.

Moof's design features superb craftmanship and excellent sewing, not to mention spiffy colours, even if he did blow my request to have "red" for "right". Left and right Russkies look rather similar, and you really need to make the things of two different colours so you can easily figure out which one goes on which leg.

I like the chicken loop buckle which holds your foot securely in the stirrup without slipping. Note the reinforced footloop with tubular webbing around it to make the footloop sturdier. You can barely see that I have done this on the Trango on my left leg - I have put a hunk of purple 1" tubular webbing around the foot, which is barely visible on the outside.

The length adjustment buckle is solid and easy to adjust. The cuff is pretty good, too, with a buckle round the back of your calf that you can cinch tight, and which holds under tension after cinching. Even the "double-width" hook is fine, and fits with no problem into Russ' titanium ring aid-trees.

Cons:

Unfortunately, Moof's design is flawed in two ways, which I couldn't actually understand until I had used them a couple days to figure out the problems.

The first problem has to do with the shape of the foot stirrup. Remember how engineering students build bridges out of glue and popsicle sticks, which are then tested to failure? The guys who build their bridges out of triangles have the strongest designs. The guys who build their bridges out of circles, straight lines and squares have weaker designs.

Imagine building a structure out of tinker toys or Mecanno, or even playing cards or cardboard and a bit of Scotch tape. If you build using triangles, your structures will bear weight. If you try to use squares, your structure will start to lean. Straight lines and circles won't work, either.

The problem with Moof's design is that it uses a circle round your foot, and then from it a straight line of webbing up to your cuff. The circle squeezes your foot, and this becomes rather painful after a short time. Notice how the Trango design uses a triangle - not only does this not pinch your foot painfully, but it gives you much better leverage as you "stand tall in the saddle". The leverage idea is what makes Russkies superior to traditional aiders when you're on steep ground, and you get better top-stepping leverage off of the triangle of the Trango than off of the circle and straight line of Moof's.

The second problem is that the distance from the bottom of your foot to the cuff is too long. See where the Trango cuff - and hence the hook - sits on my calf? That is the precise position it needs to be. Any lower and it won't work as it will slip off your calf, and any higher and you are losing height. Moof's design sits about a half- to three-quarters-of-an-inch too high. This is because the buckle and stitching is in the way - I have cinched it as tight as it can go, but the hook still sits too high on my leg. So I'm losing precious height with each step.

Design flaws aside, Moof's cuffs do work. If he addresses these two issues - basically by copying the Trango design - he will have a bitchin' set of very cost-effective cuffs, which I can then recommend.

THERON'S RUSSKIES

Below you can see one of Theron Moses' Russkies on my right foot, and the same Trango Russkie on my left. I used Theron's Russkies for a day on Born Under A Bad Sign on El Cap. As for the photos, it took several takes to get them right, and Squeeshy the Ee-WAH-nah is getting a bit bored.

Pros:

Moses has produced for me a pair of superbly made Russkies, which really do the job well. Particularly impressive is the hook. Did you make it yourself, Theron? If so, what material did you use? If knott, where did you get 'em?

The cuffs are truly CUSH, very well padded and comfortable. You can see that the design uses a triangle footloop, like the Trangos, which is comfortable to use and doesn't pinch your foot. Most importantly it gives your foot the stability you need.

I could top-step like a Mo-fo in these things, and they work almost as well as the Trangos, for the reasons outlined below. But I still finished both South Seas and BUBS in my old Trangos.

Cons:

Actually, quite a few, but they are all fairly minor and easily fixed.

The first thing you need to know [and again, I didn't figure this out til I actually took these pictures!] is that the triangular footloop is NOT SYMMETRIC. In fact, you can see that it is slightly off-kilter. The inside side of the triangle is vertical, running from your instep straight up in plumb to the hook. The outside side of the triangle comes across the top of your foot to the hook. Get it?

Theron's design is symmetrical as you can see by the position of his chicken loop, which I have had to twist all askew in order to properly orient the triangle of the footloop. So he needs to reposition the chicken loop to account for this. I think the chicken loop needs to be burlier, too, with a larger and more secure Velcro-brand point of attachment.

Maybe Theron should experiment with a chicken loop and buckle design like Moof's? That might *really* be the ticket, dude.

Like Moof's design, the buckle is in the way. What this means is that the apex of the triangle of the footloop is too low - it needs to be directly beneath the hook like the Trango, and the closer to the hook this apex can be, the better. It would be possible to use tighter stitching to raise the Trango triangle apex another half-inch, which would really help.

Accordingly, I think the buckle on Theron's design needs to be moved from the top of the triangle over to the outside of the triangle, the same as the Trango design. He can then shorten the stitching between the top of the apex and the hook, to get a super-stable platform.

Here's another look. You can see how crappy the buckle across the back of my calf is on the Trangos, and how I have to double it back on itself to prevent it from slipping. As for my partners, when Wee-Wee joins in, those two really get into trouble. Poor Squeeshy was pretty hung over the next morning.

Theron's buckle across the back of the calf is just visible on the outside, and you can see it's the same buckle as he used on the triangle footloop. This buckle needs to be changed. You need to use the kind of buckle that you can cinch down under tension - it's impossible to get Theron's buckle tight enough. Just make sure it's a buckle that won't slip.

Even though Theron's calf cuff is cush, I was never able to crank it tight enough to give me the top-stepping leverage you need.

As for buckles which don't slip, I think an excellent idea for both Moof and Theron to integrate into their designs would be a Velcro closure on the tail end of the strap around the back of the calf. This would prevent it from flapping around, and also help secure it in addition to the buckle. Know what I mean, Vern?

Theron needs to put something easily visible and red on the right Russkie so you can tell at a glance which foot the thing goes on.

These minor design flaws aside, Theron's design is Emphatically The Sh|t, and I can't wait to try the new design. Theron - if your Russkies have not yet been mailed back to you, please let me know, and I will light a fire under my Yosemite Equipment Manager's ass.

AID TREE THOUGHTS

Theron also supplied me with some Aid-Trees, which he painstakingly and lovingly made using steel rappel rings. Unfortunately, they are rather bulky, klunky and heavy when compared to Russ' Aid-Trees which he made from the titanium rings he got from Trango.

If you plan on using Russian Aiders, you had best git yerself some of these Aid Trees from Russ while the gittin' is good.

Furthermore, and I have written of this in the past, eh? - Aid Trees which have paired rings like the traditional Trango Design are obsolete! Thanks to the erstwhile Bruce Bindner aka Brutus for this tip - where the hell is he these days, anyway? What needs to be made is the new Pro Model Aid Trees, which will consist of two pairs of Aid Trees on each daisy, each tree with only a single ring per step. Two pairs of trees per daisy are far more easy to use than one Aid Tree with twin ring pairs.

So important is using two pairs of Aid Trees, that this is what I now do. My Trango Aid Trees have pretty much died, and I now use four of Russ' Aid Trees, which are something of an overkill due to the redundant rings. But it works.

Right then, lads - above are your blueprints for success. You don't need to go back to the drawing board, your Wall Doctor has done it for you [thus sparing you the bother]. Get yer sewin' goin', and we'll start top-steppin' in a few weeks, eh?

Cheers and beers,
Dr. Piton