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TwistedCrank
climber
Ideeho
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Jan 14, 2008 - 10:45am PT
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madbolter1 appreciation post
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Mimi
climber
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Jan 14, 2008 - 10:49am PT
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SubSubmanPete, it's you and BwanaDick who are afraid to answer questions. You're not forthcoming with answers and generally look bad when you do finally answer them. Your pitiful wall record speaks for itself despite the number of walls you've climbed. It's amazing you're still around. The only people who are more pathetic and slower than you, is...you guessed it: your WOS buttbuddies, The Greastest Slow on Earth.
My wall record is nice, neat, and simple. I didn't chisel, place unnecessary pins, and I finished each in normal time. My partners can attest to my performance off the ground as I led more than my share most of the time. Back when I was doing walls, I'd climb circles around your sorry ass.
Pete, Bwana, Skid, have any of you guys ever done a route in a normal time in good style? Any claims coming out of your collective corner regarding competence, skill, or soul, is a joke. Other posters here of stature are competent and they think you guys are a joke. That's why you hang out on rc.com where the noObs give you the fluffjobs you need to feel important. All three of you are heavyhanded bumblers and fools once you leave the ground or anytime for that matter.
Would American climbing history really be any worse off Bwana, if you'd taken that wise camp counselor's advice and quit climbing? Can't imagine anything as tragic as spending my entire climbing career trying to establish my competence without success. Oh cruel and ignoble fate. Blather on.
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deuce4
Big Wall climber
the Southwest
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Jan 14, 2008 - 11:12am PT
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All roads lead to Wings of Steel...
I suppose Yosemite History will someday have to be rewritten, with Wings of Steel as the central focus.
And all you buddies of Bill Russell, no matter how good of a friend he's been to you, and no matter how irrelevant your friendship with him in relation to his purported invovlement with the Wings of Steel debacle, should be shamed...
(EDIT for posterity: if it wasn't obvious, this post was written in an ironic pentameter...)
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survival
Big Wall climber
arlington, va
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Jan 14, 2008 - 11:31am PT
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I am not shamed. I was not around, and know nothing of Wings of Steel. I only know of my personal experience with Bill.
Madbolter-BTW I wasn't saying that Robbins and Bill have anything in common except that, they both love Yosemite climbing, they have both apparently chopped bolts,(I didn't see Bill do it)they are both human beings and even someone of Robbin's HONOR, PURITY, INTEGRITY, EGO, RIGHTEOUSNESS etc. can make mistakes. He admitted that he was wrong and that he made a mistake, points for Royal.
Have you admitted yours?
Yosemite History rewritten with Wings Of Steel as the CENTRAL Focus? Me thinks not.....
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Jan 14, 2008 - 12:24pm PT
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Survival, I appreciate what you are saying. We have all done things we regret. I don't hold Bill to any special standard in that regard. I just expect people to own up to those mistakes.
Regarding "all roads leading to Wos," please remember the name of this thread. If find it hilariously disingenuous how you "friends of Billy Boy" can name a thread this way and then dogpile somebody that clearly and undeniably HAS a legitimate "depreciation" of "our hero." OF COURSE you will have to find SOME way to turn the attention away from that legitimate "depreciation," as NO Yosemite sacred cow can ever be endangered! This response was SO predictable (see my first posting here) that it honestly makes me laugh out loud. See the ENTIRE herd form up again into the same shuffling, mooing stampede of mindless, factless, baseless, self-protectionistic "dogs pissing on trees" from 25 years ago.
Perhaps "all roads do lead to WoS" only insofar as the same mistakes keep getting made by the same people, and the Yosemite herd shuffles on. (And Bill still needs help.)
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survival
Big Wall climber
arlington, va
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Jan 14, 2008 - 12:44pm PT
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MB-
I didn't name the thread, nor did I dogpile you. I wrote of my positive experience with Bill.
You are entitled to your opinion, as am I.
I wish your climb hadn't been damaged, and I understand why you have hard feelings about it. Mine might be similar in those circumstances.
Lumping these folks into some kind of sacred cow dogpile seems misplaced to me. Bill clearly has friends here, and the thread clearly was intended as a positive thing. You knew that coming in and it shouldn't be a surprise that you would get a less than positive reaction. If you don't want to let go of the WoS issue, that's your business too. Room for all.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Jan 14, 2008 - 01:24pm PT
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You are absolutely right, survival. Bill clearly has friends here. I have no problem with that, as I'm sure that in other circumstances from those in which I encountered Bill, we might well have been friends too. And I have no problem being dogpiled, as I fully expected that as well. I appreciate that you are not part of the herd. I'm speaking in generalities, and I appreciate you singling yourself out as you did.
My only point in this thread is that TRUE friends hold their friends to account. "Friendship" without accountability is not worthy of the name. People can claim I'm yet again turning this into a WoS thread, but they miss the point. Bill needs help. He needs to own up to his past, which is what leads him to his today. Genuine friends would help him do that, while his false "friends" simply wallow with him, enabling him. THAT is the tragedy of the herd.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 14, 2008 - 01:42pm PT
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You'll never get anything out of Bill not the way you are going about it, nor from his friends.
You're at the stage where it's a personal problem between you and him and at the same time you keep trying to drag Yosemite into into it along with some Rescue team members who are long gone and no longer affiliated with Yosar.
You keep saying Bill needs help, unfortunately it also comes across as you need help too with your deep attachments to your past.
I can't help you Richard nor can I help Bill, both of you need to come together in person and air out your pasts.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Jan 14, 2008 - 02:54pm PT
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Werner, you seem to be again suggesting that we "let it go." And, as you have often done, you speculate about my mental health. Let me remind you of a bit of your own past on these threads.
In the first WoS thread, speaking of Mark and I: "But; ..... they are accountable for their actions according to the standard of truth." Ok, so WE stand accountable! In your version of reality does that hold for others, like perhaps for "our hero?"
Later in that thread, you chastise us for not piping up earlier in our own defense: "Decades later you decide to clear up misinformation about your ascent. Thus the misinformation is then attributed to your fault as not bringing any information in the first place to the public."
Later in that same thread, you chastise me personally for claiming that I didn't want to get embroiled in defending myself: "So he only talks once a decade .......? Now why would someone say something as stupid as this if they are trying to defend themselves?"
So, clearly you expect, nay demand, that I jump right into the middle of setting the record straight, and when I rise to the challenge, you claim that this was what you intended all along by baiting me. So, in late October of 2005 you are telling me to rise to the challenge that YOU take the credit for setting before me! Fine, but then....
In the second WoS thread, on Nov. 1, 2005, less than a week after you "succeed" in baiting me to wholeheartedly engage in defending ourselves, you write this: "There is not much else for you to do.... The truth will always reveal itself eventually.... Let it go and go forward to the future lessons that await you."
So, in less than a week we've apparently "done it all" to set the record straight. In that brief time your advice ranged from chastising us for not better defending ourselves, to urging us to vigorously defend ourselves, to telling us to "let it go" because the truth will come out on its own.
Interestingly, as it turned out, ONLY because we STAYED on the threads, hundreds of posts and over a year after that advice, eventually enough hew and cry was raised for Pete to attempt the SA, so that "the truth" could finally be known. Then, when the TRUTH finally IS told, both by Ammon and by Pete, all of a sudden they are "submen" and the opinion of the rabid remains untouched by the facts. Reminds me of a particular president....
Repeatedly you make the claim that "two knuckleheads" were solely and entirely responsible for the nighttime escapade, and that you ran one of them out of the Valley personally. You also repeatedly state that "no one condoned whatsoever" the actions of these two. Yet, I think it is quite evident by now that many people HAVE "condoned" those actions on these threads. And, as predicted, when "our hero" is addressed about his part in those events, his "friends" rise to his defense... NOT by denying that he played his part in it (because it is common knowledge what part he played), but by attempting to paint a fantasy picture of Bill where he is just a funny, drunken, and friendly "gentleman" who has his "human" foibles, as though that is a sufficient account.
And now, when I refuse to let THAT distortion of reality go unchallenged, you (yet again) offer me psychobabble pseudo-analysis. "Deep attachments to [my] past?" Well, don't be surprised if I'm not impressed.
I don't expect to "get anything" from Bill, nor from any of our mooing detractors. Owning up to actual facts seem far beyond their capacity. But I will not make the mistake again of saying nothing in the face of lies and distortions. It seems to me that TELLING the truth is much more effective than sitting idly by waiting for the "truth to reveal itself." And there ARE people that frequent these threads that are susceptible to the truth. I say, let them hear it.
And the point still remains that Bill's true friends should HELP him rather than enable him.
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WandaFuca
Gym climber
San Fernando Lamas
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Jan 14, 2008 - 03:02pm PT
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I feel the urge to defecate . . .
. . . in your general direction.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Jan 14, 2008 - 03:10pm PT
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Why does that not surprise me?
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Ammon
Big Wall climber
El Cap
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Jan 14, 2008 - 09:35pm PT
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Um, I can’t believe the WOS debacle is still going on, I pretty much avoid any mention of it in titles and didn’t expect to see it here.
BUT, since Madbolter continues to drag my name into the WOS debate I feel I need to set the record straight on a few things. I reported honestly on MY experience on the first two pitches and only on the first two pitches. I didn’t find any enhanced placements or bathook holes like I’ve heard a number of people claim. Also, the drilling of rivets and bolts were well spaced apart and it’s not a bolt ladder like it seems to appear in the Reid book.
That being said; There is a reason I didn’t continue the route, and it’s not because it was too hard. As many of you know, I am not afraid to whip and will put my butt on the line anytime IF I think the route is worthy. The two pitches I climbed reminded me of doing one of those 5000 piece puzzles, where you just stare at the pieces all day and nothing gets done. If that’s your cup-o-tea, then this route is for you. It bores the crap (no pun intended) out of me.
In my opinion it seemed contrived, especially for the next ascent, since on the first ascent if you get to a blank place where you can’t go any further, you just drill. To follow such a route you have to keep trying different “puzzle pieces” until you found the exact way that was done on the FA, that kind of climbing is uninteresting, to me. If I would have found it interesting or remotely fun, I would have continued the ascent. However, I don’t condone what was done to you guys.
Back to Bill: He has gone out of his way for me MANY times and has always been a good friend. I can only give an account of my personal experience with him… that’s all.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 14, 2008 - 11:44pm PT
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Hey Richard? You still with us ....?
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Jan 14, 2008 - 11:56pm PT
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Man, I'm glad OW ethics never got this cuthroat.
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couchmaster
climber
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Jan 15, 2008 - 12:30am PT
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Ammon said: "Um, I can’t believe the WOS debacle is still going on, I pretty much avoid any mention of it in titles and didn’t expect to see it here.
BUT, since Madbolter continues to drag my name into the WOS debate I feel I need to set the record straight on a few things. I reported honestly on MY experience on the first two pitches and only on the first two pitches. I didn’t find any enhanced placements or bathook holes like I’ve heard a number of people claim. Also, the drilling of rivets and bolts were well spaced apart and it’s not a bolt ladder like it seems to appear in the Reid book.
That being said; There is a reason I didn’t continue the route, and it’s not because it was too hard. As many of you know, I am not afraid to whip and will put my butt on the line anytime IF I think the route is worthy. The two pitches I climbed reminded me of doing one of those 5000 piece puzzles, where you just stare at the pieces all day and nothing gets done. If that’s your cup-o-tea, then this route is for you. It bores the crap (no pun intended) out of me.
In my opinion it seemed contrived, especially for the next ascent, since on the first ascent if you get to a blank place where you can’t go any further, you just drill. To follow such a route you have to keep trying different “puzzle pieces” until you found the exact way that was done on the FA, that kind of climbing is uninteresting, to me. If I would have found it interesting or remotely fun, I would have continued the ascent. However, I don’t condone what was done to you guys.
Back to Bill: He has gone out of his way for me MANY times and has always been a good friend. I can only give an account of my personal experience with him… that’s all"
Agree, but all routes are puzzles somewhat. Even Grack Center - no?
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Mimi
climber
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Jan 15, 2008 - 12:39am PT
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Just finished talking to Bill. Prince of a man.
Pretty much reconfirmed everything. The first pitch took him about 45 minutes, no howliing, no A4, and no mandatory 5.10+ free climbing as shown in the guide. A3 maybe and about 90 feet of climbing. With no further interest in the rest of the route, he rapped. Sound familiar?
Regarding sobbing in the ladders and all, he did have a clear recollection of poor Mark, gushing alligator tears while too freaked out to step down from his second steps. 'I can't figure out what to do here!' while the freshly hobbled BwanaDick spurred him on. Sure doesn't sound like much fun to me. But this wasn't about fun, was it? This was prelude to jihad. AAAAAAAAAAAEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!
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Mimi
climber
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Jan 15, 2008 - 12:43am PT
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Werner, Richard's over on rc.noOb getting fluffed. He won't dare return as he stated he was not responding further. I should live so long.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 15, 2008 - 12:47am PT
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Really .....?
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Jan 15, 2008 - 12:24pm PT
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Wow! THE PLOT THICKENS!
"Just finished talking to Bill. Prince of a man.
Pretty much reconfirmed everything. The first pitch took him about 45 minutes, no howliing, no A4, and no mandatory 5.10+ free climbing as shown in the guide. A3 maybe and about 90 feet of climbing. With no further interest in the rest of the route, he rapped. Sound familiar?"
No, that doesn't sound familiar at all. In fact I can state with absolute certainty that what is described above is not the first pitch of Wings of Steel, not the one I was on. I've climbed hundreds of pitches of A3 and scores of A4, and the pitch I attempted was far harder than that - I couldn't climb it by legit means. It was also rather longer than 90 feet of climbing.
Maybe the pitch Bill told Mimi about is the newer left start, which I believe Mark and Richard put up after the first pitch was chopped? It sure as hell wasn't the pitch I attempted.
Thanks, Ammon - that is 100% consistent with everything I have seen you write and heard you say.
"Regarding sobbing in the ladders and all, he did have a clear recollection of poor Mark, gushing alligator tears while too freaked out to step down from his second steps. 'I can't figure out what to do here!' while the freshly hobbled BwanaDick spurred him on. Sure doesn't sound like much fun to me."
It's *not* fun! It's sick and scary and hard! That Mark would be freaked doesn't surprise me at all. He took a huge factor-2 whipper off the beginning of the [legit] second pitch - the unrepeated crux - with impact forces sufficient to put irreparable "curl" into his lead rope. Anyone who would and could continue the climb - to run it out so far, drilling far-spaced "rivets" that would never hold a fall from stances off of impossibly marginal hooks - is either sick, psycho, or really really motivated to face down both his detractors and his fears.
You can argue that the route is contrived, and I can agree with you to a point. What is unarguable to me is the effort Mark and Richard made to create the route - even if it is a POS, it's one damn hard POS.
Bravo. [I think]
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