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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Oct 16, 2007 - 07:19pm PT
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From what I have seen the goal in a rock gym is to be
uncomfortable. If you are not uncomfortable you are said to
be doing too easy a climb. Climbing takes place in the
brain. In the brain the two experiences are, in many ways,
diametrically opposed.
Interesting put, this "comfort" thing. I dunno. I see more folks pushing their limits outside than in, I suppose. I just don't see folks whip in the gym that often. More for training, and, fun, and, ahem, social...
Partly what makes climbing fun, for me, is sometimes treading the "comfort" line.
I remember a friend telling a story of telling a story (!) to one of the local legends in Bozeman. He'd been bouted on some long ice climbing and/or alpine day and reeled off the story of near misses and near disaster and a long day in the mountains. At the end of the story, Obie Wan leaned back, eyes mostly closed, and mused, "ahhh, good. So you were pushed hard, but, it never got out of hand."
I mostly gym climb for fun and a nice work out, not to push it. Miles, and maybe work on a few things. A little bit of discomfort, but, not too much some nights. That, and to keep from backsliding too much (ha ha). Most folks seem to work it that way.
Makes climbing outside more fun, and, more comfortable. Prior to climbing gyms, I had a pretty hefty fear of overhangs. Now, they don't bother me near as much.
Geez, I even back step ice climbing now...
Interesting thoughts....
-Brian in SLC
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nick d
Trad climber
nm
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Oct 16, 2007 - 09:41pm PT
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One aspect of this no one has really commented on is the change of mentality from "the leader must not fall".
When I started climbing it was not expected that if you dove off stuff all the time nothing bad would come of it. The "sport" mentality seems to be just the opposite.
One other thing I find striking about newer generation climbers is how they regard the difficulty of climbs, and I think this is a direct result of gym climbing. I am not finding fault with the gyms, Lambone, but I notice, actually let me rephrase that, I am constantly amazed by the number of climbers that regard 5.10 as an "easy" grade.
I think this is a disconnect from reality that someone who has gotten really good at gym climbing, but has little or no outdoor experience suffers.
If I could climb 5.13 in a gym (rest assured, I cannot) I can imagine thinking a 5.9 or 5.10 rock route would be easily within my grasp, but there are many reasons this might not be so true.
I also think that climbers who are constantly exposed to dvd's, magazines and internet stuff about the most elite among us tend to think they should be able to do whatever it is the biggest studs out there are capable of. Like placing 3 pieces of pro on an "easy" 5.10 pitch. Hey, the Huber brothers do it, it must be good style!
How many of those reading think that they could huck an 80' road gap on their snowboard or skis? Probably not too many of us would try it, even though you see it done on tv or the ski rags all the time.
Michael
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chainsaw
Trad climber
CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 18, 2007 - 03:27am PT
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Lambone, sorry I did not mean to step on gym owners' toes or to imply that gyms are responsible for accidents that happen outside their doors. The scene that developes around gym climbing just naturally leads to the outdoors. And that can be a great thing. I have seen an entire generation of brilliant young adventurers spawn from the plastic dungeons we build. Escape into the infinite stone, and blue beautiful sky and the wind are your partners. Besides, look what all the pretty people in those Magazines are doing....
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jstan
climber
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Oct 18, 2007 - 06:08am PT
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We all very much regret what happened for the young lady at the leap. This thead with thoughtful reflections by many people expert at the discipline, is it not a very high tribute to her courage? A superb crew here,eh?
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Oct 18, 2007 - 11:25am PT
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The gyms have radically altered the ways that folks learn 'trad" climbing in several very important ways.
First, many/most first-time outdoor climbers are much stronger than most of us were when we started-- frequently they have already climbed 5.10 or harder routes indoors.
Second, most gym climbers have learned to be more comfortable with lead falls than was the case for most of us on this forum. Even if they have not personally taken tons of lead falls, they have been climbing in an environment in which falls are an accepted tool for acquiring new skills.
Third, gyms introduce tons of folks to the "outdoors." Earlier generations learned to climb as part of a progression: years of hiking, camping and scrambling, followed by miles of easier technical climbing, with or w/o formal instruction. But many/most of the folks I now see heading up out of the gym to do Cathedral can't even route find on a trail, let alone read weather, scree, granite, or an accident scenario. Gym climbing may have given them a good move vocabulary, great fitness, and a comfort zone on steep angles. But they entirely lack a foundation of basic competence in the outdoors.
The cominbation of these factors, along with the vastly increased climber population, is creating a really rich context for bad things to happen. I don't blame gym owners or indoor climbers for that-- gym owners are responsible for making certain that their customers have a minimal level of safety and competence in that context.
The next obvious step is the one that REI and other outdoor industry folks are taking-- looking at this huge pool of indoor urbanites, eager for a bit of outdoor adventur (and consumer goods purchases), and deciding that they, as reatilers/manufacturers, need to transition these consumers into "trad" climbing or mountaineering or whatever. If this model proves out, we could see an increase in the numbers of people transitioning from the gym to Cathedral or Forbidden, etc. I doubt the bump will be as big as the gym bump of the '90s, but it could have a dramatic impact on pop pressures at the crags and in the backcountry.
We've hijacked this thread a bit, and our observations may not apply in any way to the victim (and tons of us suffered or nearly suffered similar fates while working our way up through the danger years), but I think that the drift has been useful.
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Evdawg
Trad climber
Sacramento/S. Tahoe
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Oct 18, 2007 - 11:27am PT
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wow. i'm sad to hear
i can understand how misplaced pro on deception could really cause a bad fall.
deception left, so much easier.. but i think a fall there would be so much worse..
especially since there is acctually really good protection everywhere
hey chainsaw, thanks :]
just i wish i thought about that before I fell off Harvy Walbanger!
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WanderlustMD
Trad climber
Lanham MD
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Oct 18, 2007 - 11:47am PT
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"I used to teach climbing.
I did not get paid.
I did not say much.
Except: "Follow me"
And off we went to climb.
Why all this heavy Bullshit nowadays.
Blah blah blah, do this, do that, do like this.
They came to climb with me, hoping to still be alive at the end of the day ..... "
Nowdays people sue for spilling coffee. Also, I think we are de-evolving i.e. losing intelligence, based on the way I see some people act.
I also think most of what can be considered BS grew out of people failing to take responsibility for their own actions.
Hope the young lady gets better soon! I'm pretty sure we can agree that accidents can happen anytime, to anyone. How many climbers who didn't learn in the gym are no longer with us? I'm with Lambone on this one, although I can see the paradox between the indoor/outdoor advertising that is referenced to above.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Oct 18, 2007 - 12:05pm PT
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no hard feelin's chainsaw or jstan.
I'd mostly agree with the points made in klk's post above. Especially that people get strong enough to jump on harder routes by training in the gym but may not be ready for placing pro adequately on the pitch yet...I think that is the biggest common mistake with young trad leaders, getting over their heads.
I learned to trad climb around 1992, from a buddy and Mr. Longs writting and videos. My first lead was a 5.7 trad route with passive gear. It was a few years before I even owned a cam. My first multi-pitch routes were at the leap with that partner/mentor, I was 13, he was 11...and had already done long routes in the Valley with his dad.
My mentality was allways "must not fall" and in retrospect I think that may have kept me safer, but it definately holds me back from pushing my limits now...no matter how good the pro is.
Gene makes a good point agains me that in one breath I say people can't learn trad climbing in the gym...gyms shouldn't tell people they can, but my gyms web site says they can learn trad, aid, rescue, whatever in the gym...
I guess I should be more specific, and claim that you can learn 'the fundementals' of pretty much any climbing skill in a gym, given that the gym has competent instructors and adequate facilities that can mimic natural terrain like 'cracks' and 'belay ledges.' A lot can be simulated in a gym, and it's a good controled enviornment to learn and practice in. Personally I'd rather see groups of noobs or boy scouts learning in a gym rather then crowding all the easy routes at your given outdoor crag.
That being said, unfortunately theree are many gyms out there who don't abide by the Climbing Wall Association standards, and provide unproffesional and sometimes sketchy levels of instruction. This is mostly do to gym owners carring more about making money them providing top quality service, combined with poor/lazy managment. It's really unfortunate for unsuspecting students who don't know any better and don't even realize they are learning sketchy techniques.
I don't think any gym instructor could, nor should suggest to a student that they are ready to go straight outdoors after a class in the gym and do a trad lead, without a guide or mentor. I know when I teach a more advanced class that covers anchors and trad placements I specifically warn people several times throughout the course that what they are seeing are the basic fundementals, it is not enough to qualify you as profficient, and real outdoor experience and training is what they need before they take it to the crags on their own. I recomend that they practice with passive pro on the ground, and mock-lead easy routes etc, at the very least stay a few grades below their limit. My reasons for this are that 1. I fear they would be over confident and get over their heads, 2. They might sue me if they get hurt, 3. Maybe they'll hire me to take them outside.
Overall I think it's good that people have gyms to learn climbing skills in. I'd much rather be at the crags with some gym rats who took a few classes then some wing-nuts who went down to REI bought shiny gear and headed straight for the hills.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 18, 2007 - 12:11pm PT
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Lambone last line: "some wing-nuts who went down to REI bought shiny gear and headed straight for the hills."
Hey, that was me ....
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Oct 18, 2007 - 12:13pm PT
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Werner Said:
"Lambone last line: "some wing-nuts who went down to REI bought shiny gear and headed straight for the hills."
Hey, that was me ...."
yeah but that was also 'back in the day'...before nylon ropes and aluminum biners 'n sh#t. ;)
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Tahoe climber
Trad climber
a dark-green forester out west
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Oct 18, 2007 - 12:56pm PT
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Thought I might chime in on this thread, though it seems to be winding down.
First, best of wishes to the leader that fell. She went for it, and although she came up short, she (luckily) survived it and will learn from the experience.
Second, there is NO evidence that any gym was involved in her training or lack thereof; despite a reference to having climbed at Pipeworks. All speculation about that aspect is just that - speculation.
Third, we (meaning climbers in general) must all be personally responsible for our own safety.
Before leading the easiest of traditional style climbs, we must (in reality, as opposed to wishful-thinking-land) be able to both place gear solidly AND to accurately evaluate already placed gear for safety.
The leader clearly did not fulfill this. The fall is her fault and no one else's.
Folks, I learned to place gear from an older climber that I tagged along with and followed up routes. I asked him to teach me - how to place, how to evaluate, how and why things worked, how to make my safety system largely redundant. I took the knowledge he gave me and supplemented it with reading and practice.
I was responsible for my own level of knowledge and proficiency, and still am. I make the call on how close to the "unsafe" line I choose to tread, by making a value-judgement on whether to get on a climb that has scant pro, runouts, etc. I ask questions like, how dangerous IS it? Is there significant probability I'll fall? What are the most likely results of a fall? Etc...
Danger is inherent in this sport. Don't try and blaim the gyms -they're only a distant cousin of trad climbing outside, without much correlation.
Come back to reality - put any blame squarely where it belongs -on the shoulders of climbers who aren't honest with themselves (and their partners) about their skills and judgement in a real world.
You are responsible for your safety while climbing. (That's what makes it fun!) All the rest is BS.
My $.02
-Aaron
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ontos
Boulder climber
Washington DC
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Oct 18, 2007 - 01:21pm PT
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I think the real trouble is the institutionalization of climbing instruction, be that in the gym or outdoors with a paid instructor. I'm not a terribly experienceed climber but I'm no noob when it comes to risk management. I come from a surfing background; started climbing when my job took me away from the sea. I've never had any formal surfing instruction, so when a day is big or conditions are sketchy, I take things slow, do my own analysis, assess the risk involved and make a call. Never have I outsourced concern for my own safety when surfing.
I think in climbing, this idea is even more critical; you never know, even if you're with a paid instrutor, when things will go sideways and you might be in for a bit of an epic. I've read numerous climbing manuals many times and I think the final chapters of The Freedom of the Hills have been the most critical to my climbing safety (leadership, risk management etc.).
Paid instruction runs contrary to these idea. You show up at the local gym or crag, some nice fellow shows you how to tie in/belay/make an anchor/set a piece of pro, makes you feel safe, assures you that you're going to have a great day etc. Of course all instructors stress the importance of safety, but the inter-personal dynamics of the situation lead the student to the mindset that he or she is being looked after (a good thing), but in my experience with paid instruction, I have not been encouraged to think critically and really apply my judgement to any situation. Rote learning of climbing techniques takes away the all important judgement step. It presents climbing as a series of discrete steps like cooking from a book, where in reality what is needed is not just expansive knowledge of techniques, but also the judgement to use the correct technique in a given situation. Maybe climbing was safer before the mainstream availability of proffessional climbing instruction.
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Dragger
Mountain climber
Bay Area, CA
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Oct 27, 2007 - 01:05am PT
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"I did Deception three weeks ago, anybody that's climbed outside for a year could stay on route. Pro was obvious and solid, the traverse was stacked with dikes, way obvious."
I want to follow YOU on this route, Jeff. :^)
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Shack
Big Wall climber
Reno NV
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Oct 27, 2007 - 02:33am PT
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Blaming the gym is ridiculous.
Blame the morons that think they have learned all they need to know in the gym and then head out onto the real rocks.
It's personal stupidity that is the culprit.
A failure to grasp the gravity of the situation..(pun intended).
When I learned to lead, and place pro, BITD, it was mostly from reading books like Advanced Rockcraft etc. and then going out and trying stuff.I never took any leading class...
I guess I should be dead.
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scrappy
Big Wall climber
california
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Jul 26, 2008 - 02:10pm PT
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she's totally fine now and she's walking again and I have'nt heard that she's back in climbimg mode yet! But she will be soon I hope! I just stop by at sacramento couple months ago to see her and pick up my down jacket that she use after the rescue while waiting (2 hrs.) for the SAR to pick her up since she was feeling soo cold. I've heard that they fly her out to Reno and find out that Reno cant accomodate her so they fly her to davis which she stay their for a couple of weeks for recovery.
P.S. I thought climbers are cool! But they are whiners whine! whine! shut up and climb!
WW
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jul 26, 2008 - 04:40pm PT
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Bottom line is you can't push a high volume of people through a commercial system of constrained, emulated climbing and then turn them loose on the real thing without a fairly consistent and predictable accident rate. Also, those coming out of the gyms are more and more often 'sprad' climbing - sport climbing on gear - which introduces a veritable pandora's box of problems of perception. When gear is assumed to and treated like it provides the exact same 'protection' and [rest] capabilities as bolts, bad things can and do happen.
Can experienced climbers get away with it fine? Sure. But, most folks coming out of the gym thinking they are learning to 'trad climb' haven't, in fact, changed any other aspect of their climbing: assumptions, tactics, perceptions, risk management, and basic thinking about what they are doing often remain the same. That sets up situations which are a real recipe for disaster, and one that's being played out over and over again around the country. Top that off with climbers these days splitting their time between bouldering, sport, and trad versus focusing exclusively on trad and you have a much flatter trad learning curve to boot.
Glad to hear this climbers going to be ok...
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Max2
Trad climber
CA
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Jul 26, 2008 - 08:50pm PT
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All Concerned;
It would be interesting to see the statistics on this matter: e,g via post-accident narratives, to answer the question: Are gym climbers confident yet unprepared for lead climbing within their formally recognized climbing range? Or are there simply more climbers exposed to the potential for injury now versus x years in the past? Either way, the numbers should speak for themselves to focus gyms on lead climbing methods / advice.
Having recently returned to this sport, after a 10 year break, I have noticed that many gym climbers highly adept at hard face routes know very little about crack climbing. Again, this is my own parochial perspective, but there does appear to be few opportunities to practice/train at the gyms I attend (bay area and thousand oaks, Ca; and Boston/NYC). Physically, the exercise is considerably different, and imho, requires years of experience to get it down right.
Take Care
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Blitzo
Social climber
Earth
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Jul 26, 2008 - 08:58pm PT
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I don't see how anyone could fall on Deception! It's an easy solo. Too bad and best wishes to the injured climber.
Gym climbers can never be prepared for that low angle , slabby climbing, but it's easy!
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Sep 20, 2009 - 12:24pm PT
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Hmmm, shizz does happen. For example Rik Rieder on El Cap back in the 1970s. A sound and excellent climber (and an extremely nice human) but the 'flake' that broke didn't know that (Gramicci knows first hand about this one).
My closest disaster? Back around 1975, letting a certain Claude talk me into not setting a belay anchor at the base of Stone Groove because "I've led this twice and I have it wired". After setting no pro except one piece about 30 feet up, who decides (not by his own volition) to peel off about 30 feet above that piece?
The piece held but I was sucked into the wall because I had no anchor to hold me, so Claudie boy took a grounder, but thankfully just barely (which would not have happened if I was tied to an anchor, because I 'held' my belay, so to speak). No injuries but it sure taught me a lesson, and this after over six years of climbing and loads of belays, leads and seconding.
That said, it was really the first time such a mishap occurred, because I was taught early on about placing proper pro (and anchors, except for that one Stone Groove incident, which taught me 'never again'.)
I read about these accidents, such as this one on this thread, and wonder, 'did these people have proper training?'.
Back in 1970, when my mom saw that I was getting serious about climbing, she told me she wanted me to have proper training outside of the somewhat 'haphazard' lessons that one of my older brothers (who didn't know much himself), Mac, was giving me.
So off for a week to the Palisades School of Mountaineering, where people like Smoke Blanchard, Chris Fredericks, Doug Robinson and John Fischer instilled in me a sense of responsible climbing, including placing sound pro and anchors.
Perhaps gym climbers and others should consider such training before hitting the real stuff.
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Rich the Brit
Trad climber
San Ramon, CA
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Sep 23, 2009 - 04:18am PT
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Cams are just too damn cheap these days. I think Cams have cost about $50 forever. After taking into account inflation, the real cost of rack of cams has come down dramatically.
When I started climbing in the early 90s, my partners and I could barely afford to put 8 cams on the rack. There was nothing smaller than a yellow alien that was really worth placing (cam stem was almost as wide as cam wheels).
Also, at least half of them were rigid stems, so you tended to only use them in very predicatble placements.
My point - the art of learning to place bomber nut/hex placements is being lost to cheapeness of cams. When you tug on a nut, you can often feel any undetected weakness, e.g flake expansion. Also, cams are not as predicatble in a fall as nut. Yes they are quick to place, but don't rely on cams if you don't have too, or at least intersperse them with nut placements.
Rich
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