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BadInfluence
Mountain climber
Dak side
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Sep 12, 2007 - 10:41am PT
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Steve you climb at sandbag city aka Index?
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bachar
Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Sep 12, 2007 - 11:07am PT
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Maybe somebody should market a "museum" quality stick clip device...
Enough of these tiny 18 foot sport stick clips....make 'em like forty or fifty feet long - then everyone could climb better!
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Sep 12, 2007 - 11:10am PT
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Interesting to bring up the Elbsandstein ethic here...
Chalk is not allowed, no metal protection is allowed, and placing/replacing the "rings" is highly regulated. These are spaced way apart.
In between you can jam knots or sling the sandstone features.
When I visited in the mid 90's for a conference at Dresden I had a day out there, and some gracious German locals showed me around (fearing I'd do something stupid like soloing rock that shouldn't be). They were very bold. I learned that the proper translation for "watch me!" into German was "achtung!" said with the same, unmistakable tone.
The legend goes that pre-unification, the East Germans couldn't get western climbing shoes, and that the east german shoes were so bad that they just climbed barefoot, and not just climbed, but climbed at a very high grade.
Safe? who gives a sh#t, they were strong and committed, and were able to push the grades hard in relative isolation... amazing.
If you are whining about runout routes in the States, don't even think about going to Elbsandstein without a case of Depends.
The place was like a museum, many of the routes had been put up very long ago. But hey, I really dig museums... and this was a cool one.
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bob
climber
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Sep 12, 2007 - 11:19am PT
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Bachar, we could do something like a surf casing rod and reel setup where casting with a lure-like thingy that would eventually grab the bolt 40 feet out would be the goal. It would take time, take built up skill, and would also be a great way to train for fishing days. Whoa! A new sport? Doesn't even matter if you get up the climb, its nabbing the furthest away bolt that counts. The steeper the climb, the more precise the caster needs to be. Oh yeah, then if one wants to toprope to the next cast, go for it. Or just rap and call it a successful day. "You should have seen it. Ricky threw this huge cast and nailed that bolt first go! Overhanging even. He didn't even get to drag the lure/clip back with a slow drag. Man, it was really impressive!"
New way to enjoy the rock for sure. I'm going to start a business now.
Bob J.
PS wish I could follow these threads today, but I actually have to work. Damn!
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Matt M
Trad climber
Tacoma, WA (Temp in San Antonio for Yr)
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Sep 12, 2007 - 12:42pm PT
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Good Debate with many of the usual answers. I think you need to clearly define WHAT you're debating however. If you start making blanket statements like "leave it alone - if you can't climb it don't" you may miss what is truly being discussed.
I think the climbs becoming museum pieces falls into these categories - each with a different answer. Below - simple debates to more complex ones. The debates I have when discussing bolts are as follows.
I wrote this up a while back when I got into a HUGE debate with a climber "acquaintance" of mine - Modified a little to fit here...
-------"Routes Becoming Museums because:"-------
1) The hardware is old and rusty. = Replace the hardware: period. The FAist was using what they believed to be solid pro at the time. The route should be restored such that a climber today has the same "bomber" pro as the FAist did. Most of the time this is a simple pull the rusty 1/4in and put in some goo 3/8 SS. No debate here. The BY and some 5.9 in NH should get the same Upkeep.
Personally, I think this is where most of climbers effort should be focussed. Everyone like to spend a lot of Breath etc talking about the points below when 90% of the time, simple stewardship and upkeep of the hardware is all that's needed. If we all spent 3-4 days of our year replacing stuff, 90% of this debate would be moot.
2) Old Pins or Fixed Pro is dicey: Here, we're talking rusty or loose fixed pins and things like "there used to be a small tree / thread through there" to protect the moves. A little tougher, but not much. I'd bet that most if not all fixed pins, when first placed, provided bomber pro nearly on par with a 3/8 SS bolt. If the pin can be pulled and an EQUALLY AS SOLID natural modern piece will work - there you go. IF HOWEVER, you're pulling a once Truck LA to be replaced with a flared 00 TCU, I call BS. You're changing the nature of the route, which will bump you further down this list. If you can't get equal, natural gear, you should put in a fixed piece. Here, I think a bolt is the better option. It requires far less maintenance and thus, will avoid the "museum" for far longer than a new fixed pin. I've seen this method used to actually reduce the number of fixed pieces on a route. 5 pins out for 3 bolts in. This may not be feasible though, if bolts are banned/highly discouraged in an area. I saw this problem in the Gunks last time I was there. After climbing MF (5.9) I commented to and old local near me that the fixed pins on it were getting dicey (one was LOOSE). He said that back in the day Standard (I may have the wrong guy - RGold? Help here) made a point of placing or replacing pins in the area with very high quality steel ones. The intent being long lasting fixed pro on those routes. Well now, 20-30 years later, the FP is bad and there's a ban on bolts there. So you either replace the pins with new ones (can you?) that will hasten the museum status or you just let them go museum right now....
3) Fixed Gear (bolts et al) is rusty and some locations are questionable: Replace the rusty with SS - see above. RE: locations, we're not talking about a perceived LACK of bolts and adding additional ones, we're talking bolt locations in illogical or bad spots. I've seem this occur for two main reasons. One, the route was originally an aid line with bolts placed on aid, or the route was a ground up on-sight attempt and well, you didn't want to spend a lot of time planning where to locate them. I'll cite some real world cases here. One, JB moving a bolt on the BY to a better spot that protected the belay. He didn't change the nature of the route (It's still PROUD thank god) but he did eliminate an unintended risk to the belay. Dancing in the Light in Squam. Bolts were replaced and a few moved to, again, protect the belay. It's still just as spicy but now you won't factor 2 your belay from 30 ft out. Note: Both done by the FAist or with their consultation. I've seen other routes changed in a similar way without FA consultation and I thought them to be good choices.
Not Yet Done Case: Stevens Pass Motel (Croft FFA) was originally an aid line freed by Peter. There is apparently a bolt in a poor spot (they all need replacing) when if you blow the move before getting to it, it's pretty bad. It's been done that way, but again, bad to blow it. People have said that during the FFA, there was a long sling on said original aid bolt to make the clip occur BEFORE pulling the move. Now, do you move the bolt's location during the Stainless upgrade? I say yes since you're not altering the nature of the FFA. Another example would be the "very tall FAist". I've had height challenged friends make R moves to clip a bolt out of their reach because the FAist drilled as high as he could from a stance. The move was not R for them but for anyone under 5'10"... different story.
4) Routes becoming Museums because of boldness: Assuming the hardware is good (there's no excuse for a museum route because it's not modern SS) I think these routes fall into 2 categories.
a) Intentionally bold
b) Unintentionally bold
Herein lies the bulk of heated debate because it's not often easy to separate the two and even more so - climbers do not want them to be separated for reasons discussed later. Intentionally Bold routes have classic examples: The BY the Grand Daddy of them all. They were put up in a bold style that has been recognized and respected by most climbers for years. Others, in my mind, include the Dike Route on Pywiack and Misty Beethoven. These routes are known for their run-outs and pushing of the envelope. "IBRs" should be without debate. End Of Story. Anyone who whines that "The BY would be done more and super classic with more bolts" will get a swift kick by me. I probably am not bolt enough to do it EVER, but I'll fight to the last crowbar, to defend someone else's right to try. I also personally believe that the bulk of run-out routes fall into this category. The routes replaced on Royal Arches? "IBRs" Routes on Whitehorse Ledge? "IBRs" It's the climbing community's duty to educate newer climbers to "IBRs" and to do it in a way that is helpful, not condescending and counter productive. When a 14 year old complains about that 5.10c on the Apron, don't mock them as being weak and call them a "Gymbie" or what not - you've just discredited yourself and moved everyone backwards. The first time this happened to me I took said lad on a 5.9 (well within his range) IBR and sent him off with history of the FA already shared. He "got it" after that - He doesn't like the style but at least he respects it. Now there will be those that don't "get it" and you'll have to stand your ground as do I.
The BIGGEST grey areas for me - and I believe many here as well - are routes that are bold for unknown or questionable reasons. Upfront I'll state I think these types of climbs are RARE but do exist. Routes that are bold because the FAist didn't have the means or the preparation to protect it well might fall here. I've heard several FAist state they didn't have the $$ to buy bolts and would have put more in if they had them or they were saving them for the unknown above. Snake Dike is an example of this. If the FAist says, "yeah, I wish that had been better protected. It's not how I wanted people the experience the route" I think that's pretty much a green light to go back and fix it. I'm not talking bolts every 4 feet here, but if there are moves or sections that, with the addition of a FEW additional bolts, will drastically reduce the Museum Factor on the route - why not? If you stick to my belief that most climbs are and should remain "IBRs" then improving a route here and there will not "lower the sport" in anyway.
Lastly, there are the climbs that are moderate but needlessly bold. I'm talking climbs that were made bold by a climber with abilities far above the grade of the route. I've done one or two of these in my time and think they're BS. Things like, skipping a perfect drilling stance below a crux, only to put the bolt in right above it. Come On. If you were at your limit you would've done it differently.
-----------------
Again, most of this debate should be about why we don't do more to replace our aging hardware, not about the small % of routes that fall into the gray area.
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
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Sep 12, 2007 - 12:45pm PT
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Matt, as to the "why" here is a perhaps from the Glacier Point thread:
Re: Glacier Point Bolt Re-placement Update Sep 11, 2007, 10:21pm PST
Author:
Russ Walling
Maybe OT or something... but does anyone else think it is absolutely moronic that these guys need to HAND DRILL these projects just because the Park Service has its head up its ass?
What is the fine for using a powerdrill to do this work? Maybe a collection can be taken up where the "purp" just replaces all the damn bolts with a drill, gets a $100 ticket and has his cordless drill confiscated. BFD.... cut a check to the green gestapo and move on to the next route.....
Re: Glacier Point Bolt Re-placement Update Sep 11, 2007, 10:26pm PST
Author:
graham
I was wondering why there was no power drill happening here and over on the arches.
WTF
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Sep 12, 2007 - 12:57pm PT
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If we want to use Elbsandstein as our model for the future management of Tuolumne and other areas, it is important to point out that the area reamined "as it was" for two reasons. First, as part of the DDR, it was backward, isolated and really impoverished. (A bit like the Needles in SD!) Second, it has two levels of bureaucracy that directly regulate climbing. The first is provided by the state on the public lands. The second is a bureaucracy originally organized by the climbing clubs that has the power to impose rules, enforce them, and punish infractions. There are committees, meetings, "trials," elected and appointed officers, and official rulebooks.
Many self-described "trad" climbers have a pretty strong libertarian streak, at least when it comes to climbing. The conservation of ground-up climbing styles, and original (or historically restored) fas, is eventually going to depend on trad climbers developing their own bureaucratic regulatory structures. The alternative will be land managers doing it for us. The older practice of ridicule and occasional bolt-chopping is not going to be sustainable given the current numbers and visibility of the sport. John's comments above are considerably gentler, but this is the point he was trying to make. And he's been there and done it in the Gunks.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Sep 12, 2007 - 01:01pm PT
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It is a shame that threads like these turn into pissing matches instead of a well thought out discussion on the sport of climbing...it's history and how it has evolve in the past 20-30 years.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Sep 12, 2007 - 01:02pm PT
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PS- Elbsandstein has also recently developed something like a two-track system with the older areas reserved for "trad" and a handful of more obscure newer areas being developed with chalk, bolts, and rap stations.
If you are going to visit Elbsandstein, I strongly recommend going when the weather is dry and cool. The run-outs (which can be really moderate on some of the face climbs) may not be as intimidating as the prospect of climbing without chalk. I was there in the summer, maybe 80% humidity, and that stuff is definitely not Dakota sandstone, but the constant stream of sand particles rolling off on your palms is a poor substitute for magnesium carbonate.
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P.Kingsbury
Trad climber
Bozeman
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Sep 12, 2007 - 01:03pm PT
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nice pic and link john, place looks sweet!
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Matt M
Trad climber
Tacoma, WA (Temp in San Antonio for Yr)
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Sep 12, 2007 - 01:07pm PT
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Russ - I feel your pain. WA had some areas in NFS land that I had time, a weekend or two, to go work on. Problem for me was hand drilling would've limited me to not even one route. Drill? I could've done a route AND climbed that weekend. Tough to sell a partner on an approach with limited climbing the whole weekend. I too wish you could just get a permit to drill replacement holes. Not a bid deal and you could argue it would keep cost down by not having to do a rescue due to bad bolts failing.
Hell - get a rep to work with the Climbing ranger.
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steelmnkey
climber
Vision man...ya gotta have vision...
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Sep 12, 2007 - 02:10pm PT
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Dingus, I think high traffic is the yardstick of the "modern" climber. They often use that as proof that it's okay to retrobolt routes to make them "safer". More bolts = more traffic = "See, it was needed!"
We have literally thousands of sport climbs. Why can't we have a few that aren't?
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bachar
Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Sep 12, 2007 - 02:20pm PT
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Matt M,
I pretty much agree with your break down given above. I'm still in doubt about the "needlessly bold" and "unintentionally bold" categories myself.
I have on sight soloed a number of FA's in various places (especially Tuolumne) that may come close to being in those categories. I have mixed feelings about them. One in particular is "Solitary Confinement" on Fairview Dome. It is 5.9 (maybe 10a), four pitches (don't know really - didn't use a rope). I am fairly proud of this accomplishment and it is one of the hardest things I've ever done. Even though it is relatively easy climbing it was very difficult and committing to walk up to this 300 foot black streak and "go for it" on the free solo. I didn't know how hard it was going to be and to this day I would have a hard time seeing bolts placed on it.
However, I did do a bunch of on sight FA solos on the left side of Low Profile in the 5.8 range that I probably wouldn't mind adding bolts to. They were challenging at the time but I'm not so proud of them that adding bolts wouldn't really bother me. Plus they would be great routes for climbers at that level. Tough call.
Ultimately I just wouldn't want to see people adding bolts to anything they deem "too run out" (without consent from the FA party).
kik - I had no idea about the "politics" of the Elbsandstein region. Thanks for the info. I always thought the climbers were just proud of their style and ethics (which I'm sure many are). It still is pretty inspirational to me to see them continue to practice in that vein.
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P.Kingsbury
Trad climber
Bozeman
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Sep 12, 2007 - 02:21pm PT
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the reason some of the museum routes in MT are in disrepair is when they were put up, the gear (button heads were bomber) was good and everybody from the 'old gaurd' who wanted to, made their repeat. Why replace the bolts if you already sent it 15 years ago??. Everybody else is satisfied repeating the friendly .6s through .8s, so when a few young guys want to try one of lowes or dockins test pieces 20 years later the leepers dont look so inspiring, go figure...
edit: i mean replace the mank, not retro-fit....
how is a run-out contrived?
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Anastasia
Trad climber
California
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Sep 12, 2007 - 02:35pm PT
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How is run out contrived? Well...
Look for a good place to stand so you can place a bolt... If there isn't a good place to give you a stable enough stance to drill, keep climbing until you find one. If you can't handle the climb, you shouldn't be on it.
As Kamps once told me; the first rule of being a leader is "don't fall." If it is possible that you might fall, it means you are not good enough to lead.
AF
Edit: I have no problem with someone replacing an old bolt that has gone bad, but adding new ones where none were before...
Why? I thought you guys climb better then these old goats? Or what you really saying is that many of you "fall" better than the old guard? Which one???
AF
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Sep 12, 2007 - 02:38pm PT
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You just described the B-Y to a tee. I agree with you, runouts done by people at their personal limit deserve respect. Contrived runouts done by people climbing 2-3 number grades below their own level are BS, and that is a big reason those routes fell into disrepair in the first place, and why rebolting them with the same BS runouts won't matter.
come on jhedge. geez. with all these great young guns running around burning the numbers up should they really lower themselves to adding bolts to a lowly 5.11. christ, the sport std is now 5.15. i cant imagine any of these self respecting sport climbers wanting to add bolts to a 5.11. maybe not even a 5.12, what with their superior skills and all....
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Sep 12, 2007 - 03:04pm PT
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jhedge, i finally get your drift. if we had a raod paved up to the top of half dome and maintained appropriately then think of all those who would want to drive up there. the opening of the masses. get the NPS going on that will ya? i mean who the hell wants to sweat and grunt (even up the cables route) when you can drive up there in a bago with a cold beer in your lap?
isnt this really your fundamental argument?
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P.Kingsbury
Trad climber
Bozeman
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Sep 12, 2007 - 03:17pm PT
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not sure if af's post was directed at me or not, but id like the bolts that held lowe's earliest attempts to hold my fall as well. I probably don't fall any better, just more....
edit: so are the brit routes contrived since they have a no bolt ethic?
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Anastasia
Trad climber
California
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Sep 12, 2007 - 03:21pm PT
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So if I do a kick ass FA and no one can repeat it, that means someone can bolt it up to make it easier? "That doesn't sound right..."
If all the climbs are set up for every person to be able to get on it... Where is the challenge that defines our sport?
I think that if there is limited to no traffic on a route, it is because the route is a test piece waiting for someone worthy to climb it. That route is going to be a proving ground for a certain level of competence.
For example; that is why when I see someone free climb Beggar's Buttress, I automatically respect them.
AF
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