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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jun 28, 2007 - 08:46am PT
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LEB Wrote:
"I think in Vietnam we could have won but decided to handicap the forces. Here I think here in Iraq the "conflict" is unwinable because we are smack dab in the middle of a civil conflict ........one which we enabled (although we did not create it, in the first place). We are the defacto enablers much like the person who allows the alcoholic to keep drinking and not take responsibility for his or her actions."
Lois, thinking we could have won Vietnam is just mirroring the BS of the "right" at the time. We killed literally millions of Vietnamese and you think we could have won by killing more? What did they do to us again? Forget not that we weren't there to install democracy. In fact, it was the US that stood in the way of the UN mandated election to reunify Vietnam because it was clear that both North and South supported Ho Chi Minh more than the Southern Clown.
And don't forget Ho Chi Minh was hardly a dedicated communist. He was educated in Paris and was mostly a Nationalist. He had to turn to the communists when the West decided to prop up French Colonialism and keep Vietnam under foreign dominence.
The draft was tolerated in Vietnam for awhile because it took a long time for folks to realize we had been lied to and that the war was lame. We hadn't had Nixon and Watergate yet and folks trusted to Government and didn't realize War is a racket yet.
Plus they "needed" the draft to get their numbers. The only way we've avoided a draft in Iraq is by having nearly 100,000 contractors where cooks are making 5x what a soldier makes or more.
Peace
Karl
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 28, 2007 - 09:54am PT
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g&damint crowley, quite trying to confuse LEB with the facts...
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Lost Arrow
Trad climber
The North Ridge of the San Fernando
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Jun 28, 2007 - 10:14am PT
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Most of the college students I encounter would do well to get a little time in the fire zone. Learn some respect for their elders.
Jeff
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wootles
climber
Gamma Quadrant
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Jun 28, 2007 - 10:19am PT
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When Congress votes on going to war it should be required that all of their offspring of age be drafted. You can bet they will find diplomatic solutions pretty damned quick.
edit: no bum knee or boils on ass deferments.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 28, 2007 - 10:41am PT
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yeah LA,
a little hand to hand ought to help them deal with you and knock some sense into you.
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wootles
climber
Gamma Quadrant
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Jun 28, 2007 - 10:55am PT
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I thought the main goal was to catch that Osama dude that Bush doesn't concern himself with. Defeat of Al Quaeda and the Taliban were just bonus points.
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wootles
climber
Gamma Quadrant
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Jun 28, 2007 - 11:30am PT
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DAMN!! LEB that's one of the best summations I've read on the matter; on ST that is.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 28, 2007 - 12:06pm PT
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oh wow LEB, you are really on a roll here. whooda thunk?
LEB for PREZ!
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malabarista
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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Jun 28, 2007 - 12:57pm PT
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LEB,
Good post.
What you said probably applied to Nazi Germany as well. I'm sure the vast majority of Germans didn't think gassing people in ovens was a good thing either, but "what could they do about it?"
Probably the majority of Americans think torturing people in secret prisons is bad, but hey... what can we do about it?
I'm not pretending that I have the answer to these questions either.
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John Moosie
climber
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Jun 28, 2007 - 01:20pm PT
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Hi Lois,
Two things.
Why do you think we could have won the war in Vietnam? ( 5.16 million dead in vietnam in 21 years )
............................................
And.....Since you are one for taking responsibility for ones choices in life does this not also apply to all Americans and does it also apply to our choice of a leader and therefore, Who is responible for America having a delusional leader?
Would that not be America itself? If this is so, then could you possibly understand that America has some work to do in raising its discernment levels? Perhaps start by understanding the divisive nature of such people as Rush Limberger and Faux news. Maybe continue by doing a little more reading and not just accepting the word of our leaders because it seems TOO HARD to do something.
You see, I don't believe we will be back on happy street just because we get rid of george and dick. I think we need to take a hard look at ourselves and the things that led us to accept such a fool for a leader. How is it possible that this man was able to decieve us into going to war in Iraq? Is it because of the wealthy elite? Is it perhaps because we have gotten fat and lazy in our political understanding of life? Did we sell ourselves out for cheap products from china? Have we lost our way by accepting lower standards in our schools and not fighting to maintain them?
These are rhetorical questions Lois. I do in part blame the money hungery leaches in the Republican party but I also blame the lilly livered Democrats who allowed this to be shoved down our throats. There is plenty of blame to go around. We have all gotten fat and lazy by accepting things like an all volunteer military which seems like it is just volunteers but is really a factor of economics. The wealthy don't need to join the military, so they mostly don't. This creates in affect a slave military.
Why do we accept this? I am in part responible because I did not want to get drafted into another useless war like Vietnam.
I would really like to understand why you think we could have won the war in Vietnam and how many do you think would have needed to die to win WHAT exactly. Especially since Vietnam has turned out to not be sooooo frightening. Why did we even need to win that war? A war created by French Imperialism.
Isn't imperialism one of the greatest dangers we face today? Hasn't it been the downfall of all major societies throughout history? And isn't that exactly what we are doing in Iraq? Imperialistically setting OUR agenda.
Its time for Americans to wake up and demand responsibilty from our leaders.
Thanks for listening......haha
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jstan
climber
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Jun 28, 2007 - 02:28pm PT
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I remember all of that “win” stuff about Viet Nam. I must be stupid. I could never figure out what it was we were winning.
Still can’t. Does anyone believe we can keep the pipelines in Iraq from being blown up all the time? Ain't happened yet. Thirty million pissed off people who have been invaded. We will never get Iraq's oil.
I mean.. This is so totally obvious. The head of Exxon Mobil is no dummy. He knew that. So who is he trying to take over? Who?
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Matt
Trad climber
State of Mind
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Jun 28, 2007 - 03:30pm PT
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"We get labeled as self-serving imperialistic criminals in the eyes of the people of the world when the reality is that the vast majority of us are not hateful, at all. What we had (have) was a delusional leader who gave us all a black eye in the process of pursuing grandiosity."
what a load of self serving crap!
YOU represent what people across the world HATE about america, and about americans!
take a long hard look in the mirror toots, and seek some actual introspection if you dare. you posted here on stupidtopo for years about how we needed to strike back at someone, because someone had hit us in the mouth, and about how george w bush's tough talk made you feel safe and all of that...
your problem is that you are too damn obtuse to make any association between tough talk (which you loved) like 'fighting them there so we don't have to fight them here', 'shock and awe', 'percision bombing', and the loss of innocent human life, which of course you now see all americans as not (ever) guilty of supporting!
you loved it when sean hannity sid it was justice, and you loved it when dick cheney said we had to act, and you ate it up when gW said iraq was an imminent threat, and you didn't care when people pointed out that the neocons had been planning to topple SH long before 9/11, and that iraq had nothing to do w/ 9/11, and it didn't bother you at all that bushco was obviously trying to get in and out of iraq before the next presidential election cycle would have come around, because you were blood-thirsty and gung-ho, and you ate that sh#t up like it was served on a goddamn waffle cone.
shame on you for blaming president bush without ever looking at your own strong support of him and evrything he stood for!
how convenient for you that your own memory is so short, and your glasses ar so rose colored.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 28, 2007 - 03:33pm PT
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i just hope that you all were able to read my sarcasm button above....
here is a good image of the whole affair....
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 28, 2007 - 03:37pm PT
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matt, i think you meant to say this about leb's political opines...
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Jun 28, 2007 - 03:50pm PT
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hunh? Looked back at sis's post to see what the emotion was all about, and though I agree with her point, I AGREED WITH IT IN '04. I think we all know that last election cycle was why G-2 sold his soul to Diebold so he could win.
Is that that hard to understand?
back on topic, of course there will be a 'draft' (already is, numbnuts, wtf do you think it is that makes poor kids go to these particular crossroads for, these days?)if we continue this imperialist, bottom line-ledger fattening war?
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John Moosie
climber
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Jun 28, 2007 - 04:05pm PT
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Hi Jaybro,
For me, part of the angst is that Lois said she thinks we could have won the war in Vietnam. Maybe we could have. But at what cost. She is a good one for weighing the cost of things like medicine but she seems to ignore the cost of things like war. Not just the financial costs, but the cost in life, limb and morality.
Her lack of understanding about the cost of Vietnam and the consequences seems to have given her the green light to be for the war in Iraq. Another war based on deception and imperialism.
So what happens the next time we are attacked? Will people like Lois learn from the mistakes of the past or will they go right back to their fears and allow those fears to guide them. We need to learn from the past. But if we get the lessons screwed up ( thinking we could win the war in Vietnam and by proxy that that would be good ) then we are doomed to make the same mistakes over and over. Its not just about Lois. Its about all the Americans who were for the war in Iraq.
But Lois is here, so she gets to face the music.
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Matt
Trad climber
State of Mind
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Jun 28, 2007 - 04:06pm PT
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you don't get it-
you can't get it-
you'll never get it-
it would hurt too much for you to get it.
"Most of us here in America are descent people who would no more kill innocent civilians and bomb their homes, workplaces, etc..."
that's a blatantly false statement.
you pretend to be equally concerned w/ all human life, and you are not, you are concerned w/ yourself above all others, and you feel entirely justified in feeling that way. that's always been our MO in foregin policy (john bolton can even be found screaming it out loud, clear as day, on youtube), and that's exactly why americans are disliked.
"f*#k 'em, kill 'em all, better them than me"
that's you toots, that's you in a nutshell.
now your "knowledge has evolved" so that you are tired of the costs to you, in american blood and treasure, but you could still give a rts ass about any of them, and yet you openly drape yourself in faux altruism, claiming all americans are so decent and would never kill and bomb the inocent! why, so you can now feel like a good and peace loving person? and you want to put the blame elsewhere? look in the mirror- oh wait i forgot, we've already determined that you cannot bear the pain.
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Hootervillian
climber
the Hooterville World-Guardian
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Jun 28, 2007 - 04:52pm PT
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back on topic, of course there will be a 'draft' (already is, numbnuts, wtf do you think it is that makes poor kids go to these particular crossroads for, these days?)if we continue this imperialist, bottom line-ledger fattening war?
de facto draft.......give that man 40 acres and a mule.
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Matt
Trad climber
State of Mind
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Jun 28, 2007 - 04:59pm PT
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you can turn it around and criticize me all you want, but every word i wrote above about you is accurate, and of course you are not going to know it.
ask yourself this question lois, what is it that you think people in other parts of the world dislike then, lois, if it's not you?
and how are so many people decent at heart, if in fact they are so eager to see pre-emtive wars fought w/ their money, and in their names, in other (mostly non-white) parts of the world? perhaps that is something you ought to think more about.
(god forbid someone blows up a building here and people die! gee, which country ought we go and blow up a bunch of buildings in next? and never mind these international treaties that define the rights of prisoners, americans have been killed, why should we behave any differently than terrorists? f*#k 'em, kill 'em all, better them than me!)
as for your annalysis of me, enjoy it. i don't hate you, i just dislike you and see no reason to bother to be nice to you, and i am not bitter, i am just giving it to you straight, the way you don't like it.
and btw- bitter is for people whose kids are killed on the way to school, or whose wedding party is bombed. you don't know bitter, in fact you probably would like to have it explained to you, at length, so you might be able to get it.
btw- what time is 'the factor' on tonight?
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Matt
Trad climber
State of Mind
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Jun 28, 2007 - 05:18pm PT
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am i?
or am i just shouting at you into a deafening wind?
it's pretty easy to tell the difference from some farm in transylvania, i gather.
maybe i'll make some jokes about edwards' barber bill, hillary clinton's leggs, or barak osama, and then we can then be all chummy, and you'll think i'm such a happy-go-lucky sort.
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