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Jello
Social climber
No Ut
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Jun 14, 2007 - 04:43pm PT
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Mike-
I haven't looked at this thread until Ron brought my attention to it via private e-mail. I've only looked at the last few of your posts, and in them at least, you're coming across as a bit of an a33hole. The fact of the matter is that a couple of months ago, the producer of Clean Walls and I worked out an agreement where all the profits, small as they are, go to Ogden Climbing Parks, a 501(c)3 non-profit that is working to preserve and improve climbing access in northern Utah. Allready we've had some success in that regard and we're poised for more.
Why don't you make a little contribution to OCP (go to my website: www.jefflowe.info and click on Ogden Climbing Parks). Just donate what you can, don't stress over the amount - $20, $10 - whatever. In the meantime e-mail me your address and I'll be happy to send a DVD, whether or not you make a donation; that's up to you and your concience.
By the way, we haven't quite earned back our investment in Clean Walls, yet, let alone reaped big profits. Everyone involved participated out of a love of climbing and a desire to promote ideas of preservation. All profits from the sales of any of my other videos are likewise being contributed to OCP.
-RespectfullyJello
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tomtom
Social climber
Seattle, Wa
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Jun 14, 2007 - 04:59pm PT
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mswan,
My partner and I went through the same process when rapping down from the top of 4.
McTopo does say "two 60m or three 50m ropes to ground on Shortest Straw anchors", which is accurate.
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ricardo
Gym climber
San Francisco, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 14, 2007 - 05:35pm PT
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.. thanks for the post lambone .. i'm glad that we see eye-to-eye on this .. you got exactly what i was trying to say .. climb as clean as possible ..
.. i agree with you -- the zod is not a route that needs alot of pins .. (sometimes .. none --- sometimes a few)
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mswan
Big Wall climber
Santa Barbara
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Jun 14, 2007 - 05:39pm PT
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tomtom,
I guess it could be more clearly worded as "two 60m ropes tied together or 3 50m ropes on the the shortest straw anchors." Whatever, just a little extra work to fix the problem if you make the mistake. It's just always a buzz kill when you've had a great day of climbing and made good time, only to be late for you date with King Cobra (the beer not the boulder) because your pissed off searching for anchors and dicking with ropes.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jun 14, 2007 - 09:07pm PT
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Talk about cheap bastards. Riley wouldn't even give me a beer for me to sign it!
Just kidding my man.
Thanks.
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Jello
Social climber
No Ut
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Jun 15, 2007 - 03:21am PT
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Cool, Mike. We never meant to bury the techniques within a commercial vehicle. Ron's done a lot to support climbing, as I'm sure you have. Sorry about the epithet!
DVD will go out on Monday, you can use the info as you see fit (as if you needed my permission!) - I'm totally jamming tomorrow.
-BestJelloToYou
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raymond phule
climber
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Jun 15, 2007 - 06:21am PT
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"Oh sure, a critical piece of fixed gear might blow, but once replaced the route is still the same."
One party take a fall and rip a couple of copperheads and bail. The next party climb to the same place and have no idea if that section was supposed to be fixed or not. How do you know what is supposed to be fixed? Topos could do this and might even to some extent do it now though.
The same can be said about features on the wall.
The wall change.
"My comment was directed at the selfish bastards that use weak rationalizations to justify destructive behavior."
Yes, but it could be hard to see if the nailing was justified, changed route or not.
Clean climbing is very good and people should try achive it but it is hard to make any rules when clean climbing depends on fragile fixed gear or features. Ricardo needed to place a copperhead, the next parties dont because it is already fixed. Did the next party do a better send compared to Ricardo?
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Jun 15, 2007 - 11:50am PT
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Ammon- I called you out on Cosmic Trauma for one simple reason. You were cheating at your own game, making it up as you go. The route had been done without pounding at the same level of difficulty. You were well aware of that but chose to drive a piton rather than take the time to work out the clean alternative. The only driver was "efficiency" which directly translates to time off your posted record. You set an unfortunate precedent by opting for expedience over impact based on self interest.
The problem arises when the next party does CT clean but ends up with a time that is, say, five minutes slower than yours. Which number stands and why in this little speed scheme of yours? I posed several questions for you to clarify with respect to your goals and style while climbing "efficiently." You chose to not respond beyond some weak attack on my free climbing ability that got you nowhere. No response is my beef with you, Ammon.
Back to the Zodiac. Since you have done the route without hammering at least twice presumably, what is the current clean rating with the route in cleaned up condition? The first ST came out in 2000, same year as your on sight, hammerless ascent was recorded so the old C3F grade should cover the former state. Your skepticism about Chris and Oli claiming a hammerless ascent recently is rather curious if you already did so yourself. Just who was it exactly that claimed a hammerless ascent only to find one in the bottom of the haulsack anyway? Care to elaborate?
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up2top
Big Wall climber
Phoenix, AZ
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Jun 15, 2007 - 01:37pm PT
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but Ammon never claimed a clean ascent of CT. If someone does CT hammerless then that is a different standard entirely, regardless of their finish time. If they did it hammerless 5 minutes slower than Ammon's ascent then they still have the fastest hammerless ascent. Where's the confusion? Again, to me, this is just silly hair splitting BS. You seem to want to make this some sort of competition so at the end of the season we can all look at stats and times and records and decide who's better than who. Maybe there are people who play that game but its lost on me. I don't want to speak for Ammon, but he's generally stoked for you to be doing your thing -- whatever it may be -- and for him to be doing his, and keeps the judgemental stuff out of it.
Ed
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jun 15, 2007 - 02:27pm PT
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This CT thing has been run into the ground but in principle Steve is right, but it was a mild hypocrisy.
As for phule's point; it sounds like a weak rationalization.
If climbers had a little more sense of community then finding out that certain critical gear was missing and needed replacing wouldn't be hard.
But when everybody carries a hammer the abuse is directly proportional to the pussy factor and the need becomes a vicious cycle..
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raymond phule
climber
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Jun 15, 2007 - 04:33pm PT
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"If climbers had a little more sense of community then finding out that certain critical gear was missing and needed replacing wouldn't be hard."
How? There are methods that might work but you can start with proposing one.
What if the heads blow when you or some one in front of you climb the route? It could be dangerous to bail from a route and not fun to do if it not even are your fault.
I think it is very bad advice to say that people should climb routes that needs fixed junk to be climbed clean with out a hammer. It could be dangerous.
Steve, which routes have you climbed without the hammer?
I agree with your ideas in large but I think you exagerate some things that make it impossible inpractice.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jun 15, 2007 - 04:55pm PT
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First, please reread my last sentence.
thanx
As for a mechanism to keep climbers informed as to the current status of the route; well jeez let me think,...
,...could it be that you're already looking at it? lol
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raymond phule
climber
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Jun 15, 2007 - 05:19pm PT
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I have read your last sentence. A lot of parties bring a hammer without using it. I have.
Edit: I disagree with the pussy factor. I think it should be considered bad to nail on pitches that has got clean without fixed gear in the same way as bolting is considered bad. There is going to be problem though if an A2 route suddenly became C5 after Ammon climb it but it seems like for example the nipple pitch could be considered a clean pitch where nailing isn't an opinion. That you shouldn't climb zodiac if you dont want to climb C3+
end of edit.
Sorry, but information on an internet forum is not the most practical way if you already are in the valley or are there a lot of internet cafe's in the valley now? The camp 4 board would be better i think.
I still see the problem if you or a party just in front of you blow a piece or if the information was lacking.
It is not fun if you ruin your vacation because you had to bail from the grove pitch because of a blown rurp instead of climbing the triple cracks and summit elcap. Maybe not a big deal if you live in the valley but could be a pretty big deal if you use a lot of money and time to go to the US an a vacation from europe.
It is possibly to come up with "rules" for clean climbing but I disagree with yours and steves "rules". The best could possibly be to bolt sections that requires fixed time bombs.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jun 15, 2007 - 06:12pm PT
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Thats already what I do on all the routes I put up.
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ricardo
Gym climber
San Francisco, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 15, 2007 - 06:13pm PT
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I think that this is a case where folks like Ron and Steve .. are not going to understand where some folks are coming from .. -- just like i can't understand their point of view ..
.. thankfully we dont have to really see eye to eye .. -- and i'm pretty happy with how i see big wall climbing .. -- Climb in the best style as possible --
.. i actually get a huge kick out of doing that .. (like i said.. i hooked quite a ways out on the nipple and got a good kick out of it) ..
.. and i also have no qualms about making my butt safe when i think i have to .. -- a great example is the infamous rivet i added to PO .. although i felt a huge sense to disappointment when i did it .. (as in i failed to reach a goal) -- i felt, and to this day, i feel no remorse .. -- in the moment, there was no other option .. --- hindsight being 20/20, i do wish that i knew then, what i know now about getting through that section. ... but 17+ pitches up el cap, and 9 days into a solo, i wasn't about to rap to the ground because of 1 move...
.. its fun to talk about it -- but i dont think we're going to really understand each other .. and i'll keep on climbing el cap .. i dont think i'm going to leave the hammer on the ground any time soon .. (i will at least need it to get the nuts out!) ..
.. (we did leave the bolt kit at home though) ..
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Jun 15, 2007 - 06:24pm PT
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There's just something about the word "pussy" that makes me wanna hurl.
Maybe if you're worried about the dammage done by pussies such as myself that truly lack sack as well as the dammage done by guys, you'll find a different way to refer to climbers that you think gave bad ethics and lack courage.
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TwistedCrank
climber
a luxury Malibu rehabilitation treatment facility
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Jun 15, 2007 - 06:41pm PT
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Gawd. I used to respect some of you. All sacks and pussies aside, now I feel like I'm in big wall Montessori school.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jun 15, 2007 - 06:47pm PT
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Just a colloquial expression based on stereotypes but I'll try to refrain from being sexist (something I'm not often accused of).
Ricardo,
actually I DO know where you are coming from and, although it was a long time ago, I was pretty good at hard nailing. If you would care for a sample try soloing Archangel which although pinned out and substantially easier should give you an idea.
Others now go clean so I won't recommend them, but that only underlines the point that Charlie used to make that we've got plenty of room to expand the difficulty of clean aid climbing IF we can exercise the restraint.
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up2top
Big Wall climber
Phoenix, AZ
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Jun 15, 2007 - 07:23pm PT
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"Thats already what I do on all the routes I put up. "
And often get criticized for doing so. Some would insist you should hook the edges up the blank face at the start of Prodigal Sun to get to the start of the crack some 40 ft off the deck. Be a real man and make it C5, DFU, they say. I think the way Ron did it is much more practical, but there are people who support "clean" climbing to such an extreme that they sincerely believe blowing out hooks would be the lesser of two evils.
But yet bolts and rivets were chopped from the first pitch of Zodiac where people repeatedly now have to paste copperheads to get to the beginning of the seam. It's reported that those pods where heads are pasted will take a hand placed beak instead of a head, but I don't know because there were heads pasted every two or three feet when I did it after the clean up. All in all, I'm definitely NOT knocking the clean up effort, but this spot in particular looks like one place where the rivets should have been left. Charlie didn't place beaks in that section -- I'll bet he placed heads. And since we all agree that heads are time bombs that subsequent cleaning and pasting will unavoidably and indisputedly lead to more rock damage, why not leave a more sustainable piece of gear in spots like those?
My point is -- there's "clean" for the sake of rock preservation, and then there "clean" for the boosting of your own ego.
Ed
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jun 15, 2007 - 07:34pm PT
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And you already know where my priorities are on that score.
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