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Oli
Trad climber
Fruita, Colorado
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May 26, 2007 - 03:35am PT
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That was a nice typo, Jeff, "who needs an enema when you have a friend like Ray..."
Sorry, Werner. I thought "itso" meant, "What you say being so...nevertheless"
I am not above saying something I need correcting on, but I usually get the essence or somewhere near...
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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May 26, 2007 - 05:04am PT
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Greg Lowe patented the "constant angle cam" in 1972/1973 [edit: applied for in 1973, granted in 1975; see eKat's post below], and we saw the "L.A.S. Cam Nut" in 1973 (I bought one and still have it).
The Needle Sports Cam Story
http://www.needlesports.com/nutsmuseum/camsstory.htm
says Greg's patent also mentioned having 2 opposed cams, but we never saw a product from L.A.S. which used this.
It seems to me that Ray wanted a better camming device. He knew the constant angle cam was good, but the L.A.S. cam nut was not stable. So he came up with the stable configuration of 2 opposed pairs of cams staggered on an axle with one side set wide and the other side set narrow. (At least I think this was Ray's innovation; if not then perhaps someone could correct me). Plus as Pat mentioned, Ray included the retraction system (trigger bar plus cables).
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More Air
Big Wall climber
S.L.C.
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May 26, 2007 - 09:55am PT
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But wasn't it Greg who first came up with the idea of opposing cams?
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jiimmy
Boulder climber
san diego
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May 26, 2007 - 11:08am PT
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A true visionary, one of the best to grace the rocks.
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Tahoe climber
Trad climber
a dark-green forester out west
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May 26, 2007 - 01:44pm PT
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Though I'm too young to weigh in on some of this, I did have a couple of comments.
- I like the wording of the above: "Hangdoggin's not a sin, more of a compromise." That sums it up for me.
- I love Pat's saying: "It's all a zoo, and we're in it!" Classic.
- Though from what some posters are saying, Ray's ethics weren't top-notch, he definitely made an indelible contribution to the sport. And his lightweight backpacking ideas ARE top notch. I use many of his techniques for both backpacking trips and climbing expeditions. His ideas to move away from the over-engineered packs and boots, etc., have made it possible for me to backpack with my dad - hundreds of miles that wouldn't have been possible otherwise. Eccentric, but brilliant in his own way, at least in that arena.
I really enjoy hearing from all you guys on these old stories - that history and climbing tales are the reason I visit this forum time and time again. Thanks to Kevin, Jstan, Pat, Werner, Bachar, and ALL the older, more experienced climbers that post here despite the vitriol.
Sincerely,
Aaron Kutzer
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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May 26, 2007 - 03:16pm PT
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Jello- you were there. Was a prototype present in the room after the disclosure form was signed that had a rigid stem and multi lobed transverse axle? It was several years between Ray's first working prototypes and the finished design that he sold to Wild Country. I am unsure where that final design had a patent connected to it, pre or post sale. I am not taking sides on this only seeking some clarity in motivation at the time. Did Greg ever consider direct competition to produce a parallel product or did the lawsuit settlement lay that all to rest?
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Topic Author's Reply - May 26, 2007 - 03:28pm PT
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I spend a ton of time and money on patents, so I am interested in reading them. Does anyone have a citation or number for Greg's granted patent and any that Ray might have been granted?
I would also say that patents and patent law don't really touch on the issues that Jeff laid out. There is a huge gap between what seems right to most people and what patents can actually protect.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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May 26, 2007 - 04:58pm PT
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This thread is a testament to the potential of this medium for history and community. I'm proud to "know" ya'll.
Ray is a unique guy in making transformative innovations in two separate activities (maybe more) His virtues and vices stem from the qualities that we often see from those who are willing to think and act "Outside the Box."
Now, to think and act "Outside the Box" you have go outside the culture and norms of the times. That can lead you on paths of darkness and light. Sometimes the jury is out for years on the results, and the fruits can be mixed. (Sport Climbing?)
It would be nice if the folks crazy enough to do something differently were wise enough to do so ethically and with perfect foresight, but alas, It doesn't often happen.
Yeah, Ray chiseled the Nose and that sucked. Our forefathers killed the Indians and stole their land. In both cases find ourselves using the spoils of other's sins. What to say?
There is an element of 'intent' that points more judgement at Ray for spoiling future possibilities, but the use of destructive pins and heads has seriously degraded most El Cap routes for future generations, and yet made free climbing possible on them. Wouldn't it be sweet if the Shield headwall had been left until cleaner gear made it possible without the results we see now? That's probably too much to ask.
We don't know what history, nor other climbers will do in following in our footsteps. Even something as pure as Bachar's publicized solos might have inspired numerous wannabes into dying unroped at the crags. It didn't happen though.
So Ray remains for me, a vivid human being with strengths and visions to admire, weaknesses to avoid, and who made progess and mistakes. Kind of like us all but with the amplification of energy and execution.
Peace
Karl
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Oli
Trad climber
Fruita, Colorado
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May 26, 2007 - 05:08pm PT
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I see I was right about the patent date, Jeff, that it was approved in 1975, although it says it was filed in 1973, so you got that right. An interesting bit of equipment development history. How are you feeling, Jeff? I still can't reconcile the fact that one of the great climbers of all time has MS. Strange what we are sent, in the way of challenges, by whatever spirits govern this planet. It was so great to be able to give you a little hug at the Fowler reunion in Telluride. I've always thought the most of you and, as well, my hero Greg.
Did Greg ever tell you the story of Paul Hagan? I was bouldering a lot with Hagan, in the later 1960s, a phenomenally strong guy, who could do the easiest-looking two-finger pullup I'd ever seen. I was not as strong but a slightly better boulderer (because I had other kinds of strengths and lots more experience). He had done a lot of climbing with Greg, and went back to Utah now and then to climb with Greg. When he was with Greg, he'd say, "Pat Ament's a better boulderer than you." That would make Greg try a lot harder, because he'd heard of me and drew a little inspiration from word of my exploits. Then when with me Paul would say, "Greg's a better boulderer than you." That would make me try harder. Greg and I were very aware of each other but never had met. We were among the few seriously dedicated boulderers in those days, it was handful really. I had the advantage of being Gill's partner, so I had some immediate osmosis that on occasion levitated me. I mean Gill's presence and spirit could elevate one's spirit and consciousness. But I can say Greg, from a distance, was also my inspiration. Greg and I later of course got to know each other when he moved to the Boulder area, and we chuckled a lot about how Paul had played us off one another. It was Paul's private little game... I realize this is a bit off topic, but maybe not altogether. As climbers we are connected in ways that greatly bless our lives. As many criticisms as have been leveled at Ray, and many appropriately so, I imagine and am confident he too has touched many lives for the good. It seems people here are saying so, without denying the unethical approaches at times to climbing.
Pat
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Oli
Trad climber
Fruita, Colorado
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May 26, 2007 - 05:18pm PT
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Very nice post, Karl. A generous perspective. If Ray were any one of our little brother, would we hate him for his imperfections? We might feel he was misguided at times, or too easy with himself to pretend he was actually doing those routes free, and we might be disgusted with the chiseling tactics, but we'd probably still care and be able to hone in on the good parts of his being, and do what we might to throw out a little help and advice, or kick him in the pants, but not disown him as a brother in the madness of our particular family. I really don't want this thread to deteriorate into simply a bashing forum. It would be pretty self-righteous. I'm appalled at some of the dumb things I've done in and out of climbing in younger wilder years... My student Christian Griffith, after serving an aprenticeship with me, a dedicated traditional climber, struck out on his own, rapping down, placing bolts, mastering sport climbing. I hated some of his approaches. They seemed disrespectful of the traditions within which he grew up. But his abilities shot out of the sky, and I never once ceased loving him.
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pc
climber
East of Seattle
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May 26, 2007 - 08:33pm PT
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But the thong...
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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May 26, 2007 - 08:36pm PT
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LOL...All you haters can thank your lucky stars that when Ray was up there chipping and hang dogging, and going for the toe hook around the lip, that he wasn't doing it in a thong!
It's so rediculous that it sounds like an Ouch! scenario!
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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May 26, 2007 - 09:49pm PT
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On the patent tangent, I understand that the double axle design of Camalots was intended to work around Jardine's patent even more so than to add any additional functionality.
So what goes around, comes around.
peace
karl
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Jello
Social climber
No Ut
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May 27, 2007 - 08:19pm PT
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Kevin and Pat-
I'm actually doing very well, Not so much physically, although there is a little bit of light seeping into the tunnel in that regard, but mentally and spiritually I seem to be entering a very good space. It has taken me a few years to get the hang of being happy with greatly curtailed physical activity, but after much reflection on all the good experiences I've had and all the truly amazing people in my life, I really do feel blessed. Who else do you know who did nothing but play for fifty years? Adding regular meditation to my daily routine in the last six months has deepened and expanded that appreciation. I'm as fully engaged in life as ever, with too many projects to keep tabs on to worry much about some illness (I won't call it "my" illness, as I have little interest in owning it!). This forum, too, has come along at just the right time for me, allowing contact with my kind of folks, and lessenning the isolation that goes with a lot of time spent at the computer. Thanks for your kind words.
As far as my post regarding Ray goes, I just wanted to set the record straight. He did in fact steal the camming concept for use in Friends, after agreeing not to do so. A more honest man, Mark Vallance, did what he could to re-dress the balance, even though Ray had misled him, as well. I would never argue that Ray didn't do an excellent job of taking the idea and running with it. Seems to me the more honorable thing for him to have done would have been to develop the concept in conjunction with Lowe Alpine Systems, and we could have all been happy. As it is, I'm left with negative feelings about Ray, and I wish I didn't have those.
Certainly don't lose any sleep over it though...
Best to you both -Jeff
EDIT: by the way, Pat, that's a really funny story about you and Paul Hagan and Greg. I actually bouldered a bit with Paul when he came over here, too, in the 60's. He climbed the way you would expect a martial-arts expert to do: precisely, powerfully and with full committment.
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Raydog
Trad climber
Boulder Colorado
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May 27, 2007 - 11:57pm PT
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well said Kevin, thanks.
It's interesting to read all the history and the opinions - many thanks for all who posted on this interesting thread.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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May 28, 2007 - 02:06am PT
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It says a great deal that there are discussions of this kind on SuperTopo. Not only because the issue(s) get aired and perhaps a bit better understood, but also for the history and stories and perspectives.
I'm a modest climber, perhaps with much to be modest about (Wilde), and have been reasonably active since the 1970s. But my avocation is history, and I'd like to chip in. I'm afraid there's not much poetry in the following - perhaps another time. Climbing is about poetry, too.
I believe that climbing should always involve:
 Minimizing or eliminating impacts on the environment, both human and natural. "Environment" in the broadest sense.
Being utterly honest with ourselves and others about what we've done, why, and how. This is essential in an activity rooted in trust.
Challenge and, usually, risk.
Remembering that others will come after us, and that we share.
Finding a balance between these? Well, there's the rub.
My personal preference is for on-sight clean ascents. (I don't always live up to it, and even 'sport' climb.) But that's only about style - it's important to me, but others may choose differently. As long as climbers live up to the precepts I mention, I don't really care. The whole point, if there is any, is that climbers should be as free as possible to do what they want. If someone aids Bishop's Terrace, it has transient (human) environmental effects - a lot of annoyed climbers, probably jeering. But that's all.
There is a tendency to see golden ages in the immediate past. We may admit to having lived at the end of a golden age, but never to actually have lived during one. As the song has it, "You don't know what you've got 'til it's gone". Perhaps some of that is showing.
I don't know if climbing has any meaning in terms of human history, and if so what that might be. It provides challenge, adventure, and risk in a natural setting, which seem fairly deeply rooted in human behaviour. The sociology of climbing parallels that of adolescent males, also deeply rooted. There's some educational value to it, and perhaps something about the evolution of technology. Whether there's more to it than that is beyond me.
The frontier is a fundamental concept (sometimes exaggerated) to post-contact U.S. and Canadian history, and has shaped much of our societies. But climbers are still in some ways behaving as though we're on a frontier. How often does someone on ST say, in effect: "I'm a climber, and because of that I should be able to do whatever I want whenever I want, and to hell with anyone who says otherwise." Frontier ethos + adolescent behaviour aren't always pretty. We're having some growing pains around that.
Humanity no longer has frontiers as it always had, until recently. Geographical frontiers, anyway. Climbing is in some ways a frontier activity, and has a certain frontier ethos - disputes about territory (climbers "poach" routes and peaks, squabble about names, etc), application and misuse of technology, lawlessness, tragedy of the commons, vigilance committees, and so on. Perhaps there are fewer frontiers available in climbing than there were, and we should be concerned about that. Still, we're wrestling with a transition away from that frontier ethos.
Some climbers use the word "develop" to refer to new routes. It betrays a certain mind set. I prefer the word "create", and not just because it's less likely to annoy land managers and environmentalists. It suggests a more thoughtful perspective.
From another angle, climbers have had a good ride over the last century or more, with fairly steady economic growth, improved equipment, techniques, and access, and so on. Whether for political, economic, or environmental reasons, or (more likely) a combination of them, that could easily come to an abrupt end. Gas at $10 a gallon would reshape the world, and climbing.
Has anyone ever considered carefully patching up the holds that were chopped in the Nose, to restore it? It may be a useful thought-experiment.
As for the picture of Ray on Separate Reality - well, my eyes still hurt. What could we all have been thinking?
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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May 28, 2007 - 10:12am PT
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"Crack Jumars"
That was the first reference I heard about Ray's ideas in 1971. No mention yet of raising free standards, but instead they were talked about as a faster way to "jumar" cracks like the Stovelegs, thus making the first one-day ascent of the Nose. Roger Briggs commented at the time that whereas he viewed such a one-day ascent (not yet accomplished) as an athletic challenge that needed high fitness and skill, Ray was thinking of it as a technological challenge.
Joe Herbst, in his beautifully-written foreward to Larry DeAngelo's Red Rock Odyssey, gives an amusing, nonjudgmental glimpse of what it was like climbing with Ray back when Friends were top secret.
http://www.verexpress.com/rro.shtml
I just returned from travels and read this wonderful thread straight through. Absolutely ST at its finest, all the way.
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jstan
climber
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May 28, 2007 - 11:01am PT
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This borrows from another thread and is probably below
standard for inclusion here.
I have wondered how one might best elevate a life lived
below Chomolungma. Which is better? Just get it out of the
way and once and for all know you have stood on top? Or
always to live in its presence accepting it as it is? I am not
even sure which would be the more difficult to accomplish.
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Watusi
Social climber
Joshua Tree, CA
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May 28, 2007 - 07:03pm PT
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Chris Schneider(sp) is that you? I don't know if you remember me...Michael Paul.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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May 28, 2007 - 10:53pm PT
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Chiloe referenced the term "crack Jumar" for 1971 and Ray Jardine, but there is an earlier reference to that term.
The "Cam Story" website
http://www.needlesports.com/nutsmuseum/camsstory.htm
has the following photo and caption:
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The Lowe Crack Jumar (photo by Greg Lowe) .
In 1967, in the United States, a clever designer contributed a solution to the problem of the parallel crack. The Crack Jumar, conceived by Greg Lowe, was one of the very first artificial protection gizmos using a spring to hold the device on each side of the crack. A primitive instrument, the Crack Jumar remained unique in its field. Greg Lowe and his brother Mike developed their research to consider a different structure, this time exploring the "cam concept".
---
And of course, as we know now, the fast way to do the Nose is to free climb the Stovelegs, not aid them. Actually, since the Stovelegs went free in 1968, this was probably common knowledge in 1971 as well.
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