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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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May 14, 2018 - 04:16pm PT
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But, you know, let's cut to the chase.
Imagine that you could legislate anything you wanted. I hear the phrase "common sense gun control" bandied about a lot, but it seems to mean very different things to different people. So, whatever it is, it doesn't seem to be all that "common."
But you have your own beliefs, and I'm sure that I don't understand the nuances of them. So, what does "common sense gun control" mean to you?
I might even surprise you that I'd agree with some or many of your ideas. My goal is to side-step inflammatory, meme-based, pejorative verbiage and get clear on the substance of the ideology.
For example, I don't believe in ANY loopholes for gun-transfers. If you want to transfer ownership of a gun (sale, gift, will, etc.), then the person you're transferring to must pass the same background check as if s/he purchased from Cabelas or Walmart, etc. Even though this closing of loophole will probably at best stop less than 10% of transfers that are questionable, whatever it stops, it stops. The main point to me is that there shouldn't be exceptions to the rule.
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EdwardT
Trad climber
Retired
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May 14, 2018 - 06:55pm PT
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Thanks for all the telling replies.
Nothing quite like bigots trying to justify their hateful bigotry.
Carry on.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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May 14, 2018 - 07:25pm PT
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^^^ Lame troll.
A successful troll-post has to have a baseline of plausibility. That was a fail. Try again.
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Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
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May 15, 2018 - 06:30am PT
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I'm with you, Madbolter, on this one. Very few people want to acknowledge or discuss in anyway the facts as we know them or deal with the political realities. It is clear that many on the Left would like to repeal the 2nd Amend. Okay, fine. Get busy. At best, this would be a decades long effort with, probably, zero chance of success. What do you need, 2/3 of the legislature and 3/4 of the states? Not going to happen. That's just a political reality. So, what's the next thing? What policy, law, whatever can we enact that will actually do something? In the case of the Florida psycho, there were plenty of these in place--including DIRECT CALLS TO LAW ENFORCEMENT about the danger of the jackass--yet all these failed, not to mention chicken sh*t cops. So what law should have been passed to prevent this one from happening? One of the worst mass murders in American history was perpetrated with a can of gasoline and a match. How do we regulate those? There is a huge difference between passing a law and saying There! We DID something, and actually changing what happens in the world. Politicians are fond of this line of "action," but it often leads to nowhere--and often does more damage.
For sure there could be better data sharing and access. That would be a reasonable start. And folks could do their stinkin' jobs.
BAd
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goatboy smellz
climber
Gulf Breeze
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May 15, 2018 - 09:20am PT
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^^^ Activist investors are very important in changing the ways a company does business.
Stomp your feet and protest all you want but own leverage in a company and they will listen to what you have to say.
Banning never solved a problem and as a progressive I really wish the extremists on the left would just forget about it. It didn't work for alcohol, weed or abortions for the conservatives and it will never work with firearms for the liberals. Let them have their guns and the family bible and they will have to come up with another reason to hate liberals. But take those two points away from talk radio and the next generation will hopefully find more common ground.
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monolith
climber
state of being
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May 15, 2018 - 09:39am PT
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What kind of banning? I think most people agree banning felon gun ownership and full auto for civilian is common sense. Well not some here.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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May 15, 2018 - 10:17am PT
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Really good ideas, guys, imo.
I honestly do think that if both "sides" can get beyond political posturing, there are lots of ways that we can have a real effect on the flow of guns.
So called "smart gun" technology isn't ready for prime time yet, but that path holds promise and is worth some serious investment, imo. It has to be something that instantly and ALWAYS works, while being something that ALWAYS locks out the non-owner. Finger/thumbprint doesn't seem to be the way. I don't know; not my area. But surely there's some smart engineer out there who could change the world!
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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May 15, 2018 - 10:54am PT
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And can we re-visit Switzerland with its many guns but little gun crime?
If yer not coocoo having a military automatic weapon in yer house is NBD.
‘When guns are outlawed only coocoos will have guns.’
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goatboy smellz
climber
Gulf Breeze
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May 15, 2018 - 11:09am PT
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monolith
What kind of banning? I think most people agree banning felon gun ownership and full auto for civilian is common sense. Well not some here
Doesn't matter.
You think a felon cares they are breaking the law again by own an illegal weapon?
In some neighborhoods they have no choice, they can't call the police because they do not respond, try calling 911 in Detroit, Memphis, or Buford WY when you are in danger and see how fast help arrives.
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EdwardT
Trad climber
Retired
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May 15, 2018 - 11:14am PT
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monolith
What kind of banning?
Gun banning.
Dianne Feinstein, U.S. Senator from California
“Banning guns addresses a fundamental right of all Americans to feel safe.”
“The National Guard fulfills the militia mentioned in the Second amendment. Citizens no longer need to protect the states or themselves.”
Frank Lautenberg, U.S. Senator from New Jersey
“We have other legislation that all of you are aware that I have been so active on, with my colleagues here, and that is to shut down the gun shows.”
Howard Metzenbaum, former U.S. Senator
“No, we’re not looking at how to control criminals … we’re talking about banning the AK-47 and semi-automatic guns.”
Charles Pashayan, U.S. Representative from California
“All of this has to be understood as part of a process leading ultimately to a treaty that will give an international body power over our domestic laws.”
Pete Stark, U.S. Representative from California
“If a bill to ban handguns came to the house floor, I would vote for it.”
William Clay, U.S. Representative from Missouri
” …we need much stricter gun control, and eventually should bar the ownership of handguns”
Joseph Biden, Vice President of the United States
“Banning guns is an idea whose time has come.”
John Chafee, Former U.S. Senator from Rhode Island
“I shortly will introduce legislation banning the sale, manufacture or possession of handguns (with exceptions for law enforcement and licensed target clubs)… . It is time to act. We cannot go on like this. Ban them!”
Major Owens, U.S. Representative from New York
“We have to start with a ban on the manufacturing and import of handguns. From there we register the guns which are currently owned, and follow that with additional bans and acquisitions of handguns and rifles with no sporting purpose.”
Bobby Rush, U.S. Representative from Illinois
“My staff and I right now are working on a comprehensive gun-control bill. We don’t have all the details, but for instance, regulating the sale and purchase of bullets. Ultimately, I would like to see the manufacture and possession of handguns banned except for military and police use. But that’s the endgame. And in the meantime, there are some specific things that we can do with legislation.”
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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May 15, 2018 - 11:18am PT
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Goatboy is right. I do my politicking by buying a few shares and speaking my mind at shareholders meetings.
Of course one can always start a thread about how this country's oldest civil rights organization is intent on terrorism. Sure,.... that will convince a lot of people.
I'd love to hang and jaw about it but I have a new Sig Rattler in .300 BLK to sight in.
edit; kingtut research Archduke Ferdinand.
Didn't shoot up the countryside? Hell, no whiskey tango meth head ever crossed the country with 2 trains, the first with him shooting every animal in sight while being handed freshly loaded rifles, and the second with people to collect his "trophies" (and compensate farmers!!)
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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May 15, 2018 - 11:28am PT
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is utterly foreign to anyone in the central European countries.
Yeah, as was the notion of a constitutional republic prior to the founding of the United States.
I'm SO glad that the USA is not yet just another European socialist democracy.
It's coming, but hopefully long after I'm gone.
Meanwhile, pointing to Europe as an example of how to be is a non-starter in my mind. Must be nice to be a member of NATO and have the USA carry the vast majority of the weight!
Just imagine what their economies would be like if they had to actually pay for real national defense. Same with Canada. What if the USA withdrew entirely from NATO and said, "We're done with paying your way. If you don't want to be overrun by Germany (again) or the new Soviets, then you'd best get serious about national defense again."
The USA makes it easy for these other nations to pretend that their perspectives are economically sustainable.
The above is not really thread-drift, because these policies and perspectives are deeply interrelated. The "nanny state" mentality (including perspectives on the government being a good proxy for self-defense) is only as sustainable as it is economically sustainable.
In the USA we can still pretend that it "could" be viable. But Europe and Canada are living in a fantasy-land that we've helped create.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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May 15, 2018 - 12:01pm PT
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^^^ LOL
Wow, were you spitting as you wrote that.
Look it up. NATO is paid for by the USA. Europe and Canada haven't pulled their military weight during our lifetimes.
And that breeds a "nanny state" mentality.
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Todd Eastman
Social climber
Putney, VT
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May 15, 2018 - 02:13pm PT
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If the US wants NATO, the US needs to pay for NATO...
If the US doesn't want to play by that, Russia will step into the void left by Trump's foolish attempts at policy...
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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May 15, 2018 - 02:56pm PT
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^^^ Fail.
There are objective facts. Live within those, and our discussions have a hope of being productive.
But you perpetually devolve into personal attacks a wild speculations about my motives, character, sanity, etc.
Facts are facts. The USA almost single-handedly sustains NATO, and that at vast, vast expense to us.
There are pros and cons to that commitment, but the fact remains that Europe and Canada have US-propped-up economies that enable a nanny-state approach that we're significantly paying for. Let them pay for their own national defense in-toto, and you'd see a sudden and significant scale-back of socialist policies.
No worries, though. We've got your back. (And front.)
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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May 15, 2018 - 04:20pm PT
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Now if you're a peace loving hippy who trusts in the good will of men, well, NATO is a front for the world's greatest arms merchants. Which it is.
Absolutely!
Perhaps we could all get on the same page about the idea that the US MIC should be cut in half, we should not longer be policeman to the world, we should abandon in-toto the sick manifest destiny crap, and then spend a decade or two enduring the pain of the "reset" that this would introduce.
In the end, we'd come out of it far more economically healthy, and the the NATO countries could learn again what it is to pay their own freight.
Of course, nobody can (live long enough to) become president (or even powerful senator) with that agenda.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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May 15, 2018 - 04:22pm PT
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ginning you up to hate others
Ah, and there it is again. The forever liberal punt: "ANY ideas I don't like are hate speech."
Nothing more to say to you. You insist on personal attacks, and I won't play your game.
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
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May 15, 2018 - 04:48pm PT
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Well said Dingus.
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EdwardT
Trad climber
Retired
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May 15, 2018 - 04:55pm PT
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^^^^"Objective Facts" a "Nanny State"???
ROFL do you even know what the word "objective" means?
Describing something as a "Nanny State" is purely subjective opinion. You believe what you want to believe as you have never lived there yourself, have you? Don't knock it till you have LIVED it.
And WHY pray tell, would we do that?
Because it is a GIGANTIC WELFARE SUBSIDY TO OUR OWN MIC THAT'S WHY AND GOOD FOR US TO HAVE OTHERS CONTAIN THE SOVIETS/RUSSIA WITH THEIR SOIL AND OUR BASES THERE.
FFS its like talking to a child that listens to Rush Limbaugh.
We support NATO because it helps our MIC to be more powerful than any other on Earth and increases American Hegemony. If the Europeans "carried their weight" like your RW propaganda tells you they should they would be a threat to our world dominance and military might.
Classic RW talking out of both sides of their mouths to criticize Europe when it actually benefits the MIC that they love.
And guess what Richard: You didn't come up with that criticism of NATO on your own. Smarter men told you to think that because they get rich ginning you up to hate others and keeping you from thinking about what they really are doing: Looting the Treasury for the MIC's profit.
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