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cavemonkey
Ice climber
ak
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Dec 27, 2017 - 06:08pm PT
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glad madbolter chimed in with his 2 cents.......
really dude, get a life
you ruin everything you touch
voice your opinion, then STFU!
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Dave
Mountain climber
the ANTI-fresno
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Dec 27, 2017 - 06:08pm PT
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"You gentlemen need to understand that labor produces capital, capital does not produce labor. Capital is concentrated into the hands of the very few through theft."
Gary - I am curious what your line of work is?
Yes, labor produces money that can then be invested, if one so chooses. But by your own line of thinking, if labor produces capital, and capital through concentration is theft, then labor itself produces theft. That sounds very Chavenista. Are you from Venezuela, by chance?
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Dec 27, 2017 - 06:24pm PT
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Madbolter. As I don't appreciate the concept of minimum wages, we do not have it, you answer that question yourself.
I'm confused by this statement. If I read you correctly, you were advocating for higher wages and claiming that this is always good for an economy. Apparently you were not advocating for a "minimum wage" increase. But, then, you say this....
Every country has its own ways how the economy is constructed, and who better to suggest a solution but the citizens?
But I don't know how to read that as other than advocating that "the citizens" vote for higher wages. We have no mechanism to do that other than to "lobby" Congress to increase the minimum wage or to state-by-state vote to increase the minimum wage at the state level. Either way, you are setting up a normative "ought" that citizens should increase the minimum wage because that is better for everybody.
What am I missing or misunderstanding here? Are you advocating instead for a complete economic overhaul, moving the USA to something like communism? I'm just not clear about what you are advocating.
What I don't get though, is why some don't see one's own society as "us". Instead of going for a better place for everyone, including oneself, one heads for the opposite.
Part of the problem is that both political parties have turned economics into an us/them game. When the trend is toward increasing entitlements rather than free-market desert, and the notion of personal responsibility and life-choice consequences has well nigh departed from this nation, it's on the brink of simple game theory to just cash in one's cards and become just another taker. There are those that take, and there are those that produce. The balance is tipping over to the side of the takers at this point, and the producers are reaching the point that they can't keep up.
As I've noted above, the vast majority of companies are not taking advantage of their employees. Instead, these companies are operating on razor-thin margins, and there simply isn't the mythical "fat" there to, say, double employee wages. So, if "the citizens" decide, as you say, to increase wages by some arbitrary amount, what those same citizens are really deciding is to bury many businesses, raise prices, and reduce jobs. Economically speaking, none of those is "good for everybody."
There is an us/them game in play here, particularly when workers are demonstrating in the streets demanding a "fair" wage or a "living" wage, as though minimum wage was EVER intended to support a family.
The idea that people will have more money and thus buy more and pay more taxes doesn't work. Those same people with "more money" still expect to shop at Walmart at the lowest, pre-wage-increase prices and pay bottom-dollar for a hamburger. So, the higher wages provide no net return for such companies, because if they keep prices at pre-wage-increase levels, they are now losing money, which is not sustainable.
And those same people pay little/no taxes (SS, etc. are not "taxes;" they are "investments"). Thus, there is no net gain to the taxpayers (as if there are now more people shouldering the burden); indeed, the taxpayers just continue to subsidize the wage increase. And that's because nobody pushing for higher wages is correspondingly suggesting anything like a flat-tax or dropping the tax-free threshold lower to capture these still low-income (but now a bit higher-income) people into the ranks of genuine taxpayers.
Many people believe this "better for everyone" argument, but I haven't seen the cogent case in favor of it yet. In anything resembling a free market, wages are just an expense that has to be passed on in terms of pricing. Forcibly increase wages (by "the citizens" deciding on some arbitrary increase), and business either have to increase prices, cut hours/jobs, or close up shop. The first alternative ends up producing the same purchasing-power stasis that existed prior to the wage increase; the final two alternatives hurt rather than help the overarching economy.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Dec 27, 2017 - 06:26pm PT
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you ruin everything you touch
LOL... why the hate? Sounds like you need to get a life. And some perspective.
See, it's a forum thread. It's not a big deal. Chill out, smoke or drink something (more), and relax, dude. It's all gonna be okay. And then you'll die.
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Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Dec 27, 2017 - 06:51pm PT
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HINTs for "POP QUIZ" one:
Western...
Actor was VERY famous "Leading man"...
Pompy gives it away. The answer is Marion Morrison, and I didn't have to use the Google either.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
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Dec 27, 2017 - 07:07pm PT
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Chompy is Trump the corn gobbler...?
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Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Dec 27, 2017 - 07:12pm PT
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Are you going to make use the Google?
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Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Dec 27, 2017 - 07:13pm PT
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MB1:
It must be nice to live in one of those places, a part of NATO living in peace because of not having to pay the USA for the costs of defending them. That's just one of the many expensive ways in which these little utopias don't pay their own freight. And let's wait about another decade, so that we can witness first-hand the implosion of the EU due to their inability to pay for the freebies that are seen as "rights."
Yeah, imagine that, using national treasure for the good of the people rather than handing it over to the Robber Barons of the Military Industrial Complex.
Dave:
Someone said that - I'd love to know what percentage the masses would not deem "too high" for the owners to take from their own businesses.
It's a simple formula first stated by Eugene Debs sometime before they imprisoned him.
“We want a system in which the worker shall get what he produces and the capitalist shall produce what he gets.”
Small businesses make up:
99.7 percent of U.S. employer firms,
64 percent of net new private-sector jobs,
49.2 percent of private-sector employment,
42.9 percent of private-sector payroll,
46 percent of private-sector output,
43 percent of high-tech employment,
98 percent of firms exporting goods, and
33 percent of exporting value.
So, are you disparaging your neighbor running the successful UPS store franchise down the street who happens to be successful when you are bashing "the 1%"? Probably. Most people and most businesses aren't Amazon or Apple, or their executives.
Absolutely not. Read Norman Thomas, and Michael Harrington. Small business would be better off under a socialist system without the robber barons breaking their backs.
MB1:
And, if their boards and shareholders are happy to pay successful CEOs the salaries they command, well, then vote with your feet and quit investing in such companies, while lobbying those boards for reform. Good luck with that.
Good luck voting less pay for the CEOs.
Bad Climber:
I guess it depends on what you mean by "theft." Is Jay-Z stealing from his fans? What about Michael Jordan? His net worth: 1.39 Billion. That's a lot of capital. From whom did he steal? Or is that small change? Which, I get, isn't that much compared to really big players. I'm not really disagreeing with you. I'd just like a little clarification as to what you're thinking about when you say this. Overall, I'm a big fan of capitalism, and I think Madbolter is totally correct about lifting people out of poverty, but it (capitalism) does need some controls. The question, as always, is how much?
Being particularly filthy rich doesn't make you a capitalist. Phil Knight is a capitalist. How many people has he lifted out of poverty? Nike won't say what they pay their slaves. How much has Phil Knight made off of their blood, sweat and tears?
Dave:
Yes, labor produces money that can then be invested, if one so chooses. But by your own line of thinking, if labor produces capital, and capital through concentration is theft, then labor itself produces theft. I think your logic there is a little flawed. Labor produces capital, it is then, under capitalism, concentrated in the hands of a few. The capitalist appropriates the wealth created by others through coercion. If you don't think that's true here's just one recent example of capitalism lifting people up:
Topacio Reynoso was so precocious her mother sometimes joked she was an extraterrestrial....
At 14, she devoted herself to opposing construction of a large silver mine planned for a town nearby....
Topacio’s father, Alex, knew that speaking out could put the family in peril. Latin America is the most dangerous region in the world for environmental activists, with at least 120 killed last year alone, according to the nonprofit Global Witness.
But Topacio convinced him that it wasn’t a choice to oppose the mine, that it was an obligation: His father had left him land that was uncontaminated; it was up to him to pass on clean land to his kids...
He threw himself alongside his daughter into the fight.
These days, when he touches the bullet scars on his body or gazes at the memorial to Topacio that the family has erected on the porch, he wonders whether his decision was right.
http://www.latimes.com/world/la-fg-environmental-activists-guatemala-20171227-htmlstory.html
Hey! My very own WOT! Woot!
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Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Dec 27, 2017 - 07:17pm PT
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Someone is already DEAD when the actor says the line...
locker, you dog! You got me. I had to use the google, though. I'm so ashamed, it's a real classic. A hell of a cast, for sure.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Dec 27, 2017 - 09:41pm PT
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Whatever your idealism holds isn't what is actually happening.
I don't know what you're attributing to me, Jim. I've perpetually posted that I'd like to see US military machine (and its supporting mega-corps) cut by at least half. My "idealism" is that manifest destiny has been a nightmare for the whole world.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Dec 27, 2017 - 10:49pm PT
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As I've noted above, the vast majority of companies are not taking advantage of their employees. Instead, these companies are operating on razor-thin margins, and there simply isn't the mythical "fat" there to, say, double employee wages.
You've noted it, but you haven't supported your assertion. Here are the actual numbers:
http://pages.stern.nyu.edu/~adamodar/New_Home_Page/datafile/margin.html
What do you define as a "razor-thin margin?"
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Dec 28, 2017 - 02:11am PT
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What do you define as a "razor-thin margin?"
Thanks for the numbers. Makes my point. Look at which sectors do better than 10%. Not many, and look at what they are. Banks for one example. Financial services. And tobacco is the big winner. LOL
If you think that 10% is "fat," then you've never run a business. Basically, to operate on 10% profit or less (much/all of which small businesses reinvest and don't get to enjoy the reinvestment tax break that c-corps enjoy), nothing can go wrong. That's what I mean by "razor-thin," and business owners know exactly what I'm talking about.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
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Dec 28, 2017 - 06:42am PT
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Oil isnt behind this... Corn is.. Chomp away..
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JBoone
Social climber
NC
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Dec 28, 2017 - 08:27am PT
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Capitalism is the worst economic system, except for all others.
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Dave
Mountain climber
the ANTI-fresno
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Dec 28, 2017 - 08:40am PT
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"it demands paritcipants whos wealth is taken from them without their consent being freely given"
Are you saying someone put a gun to your head to buy the computer you are typing this on?
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Dave
Mountain climber
the ANTI-fresno
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Dec 28, 2017 - 08:56am PT
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"Small business would be better off under a socialist system without the robber barons breaking their backs."
That's working out great in Venezuela and Zimbabwe. All those family farmers and family run stores are doing GREAT, aren't they? And the "robber baron" corporations have been pushed aside by the government, so there's no excuse is there? Yay, Socialism!
"Labor produces capital, it is then, under capitalism, concentrated in the hands of a few. The capitalist appropriates the wealth created by others through coercion. If you don't think that's true here's just one recent example of capitalism lifting people up:"
The "capitalist" hires labor who has chosen not to start their own businesses, for whatever reason. No one coerces thee employee to work for him - the employee has a choice to start his own business or work for any of the millions of companies in this country.
In your Latin American mining example, what you describe is a clash of cultures (1) and poor tax policy by the national governments (2). Mining jobs pay much more than other jobs in many regions. But family farms see the mines as responsible for drying creeks (climate change) even though the mines return water they use. The governments return very little tax from the mines to the local towns, which is cause for much of the local disruption.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Dec 28, 2017 - 10:26am PT
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There is no room for idealism in the equation.
Please explain this supposed idealism I'm guilty of.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Dec 28, 2017 - 10:29am PT
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A bulk of that 'wealth' has been gathered by borrowing from the future.
That's a strident claim that will need a lot of support!
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