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Cragar
climber
MSLA - MT
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Dec 19, 2017 - 01:54pm PT
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So what you are saying is that I am not entitled to my opinion, based upon my own experiences? I'm not sure what your status is, to be able to dictate that.
I have no experience on the Bob, although I do on the Selway-Bitterroot and Frank Church-River of No Return Wilderness, where my friend was the ED of the Foundation. He paints a different picture than you.
I think I was a little harsh/to blunt with my get over yourself statement. It is the essence of what I mean, but... Damn straight you are entitled to your opinion but what I am suggesting is to try out others perspectives from other positions, not necessarily your position. You have to be curious, relaxed and be holding a checked ego. I am trying to get you to challenge your belief/opinion. Nothing more and I think it helps with the general crap these days in our country ;^)
Yeah, those 2 wilderness areas are very different than the Bob. The access, geography, and most of all the traditions of the area and times of formation are the primary reasons IMO. Shoot, they cherry stemmed the hell out of the Frank along with allowing some large scale mining operations to take place basically within the wilderness. There was A LOT of give and take to form that wilderness and I believe that was a good thing. Also, I find hella more wilderness qualities in the 'sub' ranges of where the PNW and Northern Great Basin collide; these areas are less affected by guide books, instagram and the like. I had to stumble upon them. That mountaineers crap book of the 50 best hikes in the PNW frikkin ruined portions of the Great Burn in the subalpine zones along the stateline more than any bicycle or sled did IMO, I have watched it unfold and change over the last 23 years. Plus, that W word attracts use magnitudes greater than other protections. If you are concerned about the protection of lands for the lands then avoid the W. To me, if you are concerned about you and your experience, then there lies the problem. Do you see what I mean about the human problem with wilderness?
RE: Matt's up above...yeah, climbers that F* up the niche and habitats of cliffs which are hella finite and much smaller in area than lands with trails is kinda mind boggling to me. Talk about cognitive dissonance! Cleaning and trundling a wall for a climb is frikkin gnarl on a cliffscape! Anyone know about the route Access-ive Force in the Grotto?
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Social climber
Wilds of New Mexico
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Dec 19, 2017 - 03:43pm PT
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Not to be overly fussy but:
Except as specifically provided for in this Act, and subject to existing private rights, there shall be no commercial enterprise and no permanent road within any wilderness area designated by this Act and except as necessary to meet minimum requirements for the administration of the area for the purpose of this Act (including measures required in emergencies involving the health and safety of persons within the area), there shall be no temporary road, no use of motor vehicles, motorized equipment or motorboats, no landing of aircraft, no other form of mechanical transport, and no structure or installation within any such area.
It seems to me the act expressly prohibits "mechanical transport," which I think must include bikes. Especially as the act expressly mentions "motor vehicles" and "motorized equipment" which to me means congress knew it was prohibiting mechanized transport in addition to motor transport. It's likely an attempt to allow bikes would result in litigation by pro-wilderness groups.
Edit: I just read the first post and saw that what might be under consideration is an amendment to the "mechanical transport" language...
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Dec 19, 2017 - 03:55pm PT
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A SLCD is mechanical transport, if you use them to aid up a route. Same with Jumars.
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Lituya
Mountain climber
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Dec 19, 2017 - 04:07pm PT
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Same with climbing skins and bindings on BC skis.
As for amending the 1964 Act, Congress has a right to amend or repeal any legislation they wish—as long as they aren’t stepping on the Constitution. (This also applies to national parks, BTW.) On what grounds would environmental orgs sue?
Finally, the changing demographics of the US don’t look good for wilderness—which has become mostly a white playground. Not sure what the demographics of MTB look like, but sadly wilderness looks more like elitism with each passing decade. Again, wilderness needs more participant advocates. Not more restrictions and locked gates.
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Social climber
Wilds of New Mexico
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Dec 19, 2017 - 04:55pm PT
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I didn't look closely at the original post and thought it was a regulation being proposed that would conflict with the statue, as opposed to an amendment of the actual statute. Agreed that congress can amend the act.
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Lituya
Mountain climber
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Dec 19, 2017 - 05:36pm PT
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You can take all that stuff already if you're so inclined. But the wheelbarrow might be preferable.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
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Dec 19, 2017 - 06:40pm PT
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Lituya...Llamas...? I knew you were a closet snowflaker...
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ryankelly
climber
Bhumi
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Dec 20, 2017 - 06:50am PT
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Lots of good points: separate trails, limited opening of areas, and others
One of the original "Wilderness" concepts was it would take someone on a horse a week (or maybe it was longer) to cross it. As mentioned by others on this thread there is something to the idea about an extended multi-day experience vs day-use.
My main questions:
How will this proposed increased use and necessary infrastructure be paid for?
This bill has agenda beyond the stated one. For that reason alone I'd say not this bill, not right now.
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10b4me
Mountain climber
Retired
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Dec 20, 2017 - 07:55am PT
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As a pretty avid biker, I generally agree with most who have posted here about not granting absolute authority but not outright denying it either. As much as I love getting out into remote areas on the bike, I also believe that it's not appropriate for some wilderness areas. It's not that I think bikers cause more impact than some other users. It's just that bikers are people, and people cause impact. Inconsiderate people cause far more impact. Some of that is based upon perceived impact. Some if it is based upon my own observations of other riders.
I'm often up in the Camp Nelson area near the Needles, which has become a popular riding area. Lots of long downhill singletrack, some of it through Sequoia groves and a highway running parallel to it that let's the slackers avoid having to earn their downhill. One trail, the Nelson Trail, has long been popular with hikers but has become equally popular with bikers. They have full DH rigs, full face helmets, shin guards, etc., and they blow down this narrow singletrack like it's the X Games. No etiquette, no concern for safety of other user. Total a-holes. Unless it's the dead of midweek or off season, I won't take my kids on that anymore. Just way too sketchy. I'd hate to see place I love in the Sierra denigrade into that. As awesome as I think it would be to bike back into some remote area and blow out same day without trashing my feet and knees, I know I can still get back there; it'll just be without my bike.
You bring up an interesting point. Would the mountain bikers respect the wilderness? of course I guess that can be asked of most backcountry users.
As a mountain biker, I have mixed emotions on this.
One question I have is what happens if a biker is injured, and has to be flown out. What happens to the bike?
I know of a situation that occured last year where three bikers got lost, and had to be escorted out by SAR. SAR would not let them bring the bikes out(they had to go back the following week to get them).
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Dec 20, 2017 - 09:54am PT
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A pretty balanced article from the Sierra Club website:
https://www.sierraclub.org/sierra/do-bikes-belong-wilderness-areas
I can't agree with the idea that there are no existing wilderness areas compatible with XC biking, but the author is legitimately looking at things from all sides and trying to find compromises.
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Dec 20, 2017 - 10:28am PT
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One question I have is what happens if a biker is injured, and has to be flown out. What happens to the bike?
I know of a situation that occured last year where three bikers got lost, and had to be escorted out by SAR. SAR would not let them bring the bikes out(they had to go back the following week to get them). This happens in other contexts as well. About 15 yrs. ago, 5 minutes into the descent off of Clyde Minaret, my partner pulled off a loose block, fell about 10 ft. hit a ledge and had the block land in his lap. We got choppered off the following morning and flown to the Mammoth airport. He got transported to the hospital. Problem was all our stuff--tents, backpacks, car keys--were at our camp at Minaret Lake. I had to convince someone low on the SAR chain to drive to the trailhead so that I could hike back up to Minaret Lake, after zero sleep, food or water the night before, hike in the 7.5 miles to our camp and then hump both my and my partner's gear back to the trailhead. It was the most exhausting thing I've ever done.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Dec 20, 2017 - 10:43am PT
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What happens to the bike?
BOOTY!
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looking sketchy there...
Social climber
Lassitude 33
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Dec 20, 2017 - 10:54am PT
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If handled on a case by case situation and where appropriate (particularly where bikes were previously allowed, but suddenly excluded by new Wilderness designations), this is hardly the end of the world.
Just like with climbers and hikers, the more remote the location and difficult to reach, the fewer people and the more conscientious the user.
The benefit could very well be that mtb groups will support future wilderness designations where the right to historical use is preserved.
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
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Dec 20, 2017 - 11:15am PT
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Inconsiderate people cause far more impact. When I was mountain biking a lot, I was also running the same trails, sometimes in designated wilderness areas.
Not once did I ever see a mountain biker ever slow down when passing pedestrians on the trail, nor did they even move off the narrow trail to minimize the risk of collision with pedestrians.
Ever have a mountain biker fly past you, missing by mere inches, going at speed of Mach 2?
When passing pedestrians, I always got off my bike and walked past hikers, or even stopped entirely to allow them to pass.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Dec 20, 2017 - 11:20am PT
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Ever have a mountain biker fly past you, missing by mere inches, going at speed of Mach 2?
Luckily for them, no. Around here, amazingly, mountain bikers are
invariably courteous. Go figure. They may well get down, load their
bike on their Land Rover, and then turn into lunatics but I've no
data for that. I do see a lot of a-hole drivers with bike racks but
if there are bikes in the rack and they are driving like buttheads my
data indicates they are usually road bikers.
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Dec 20, 2017 - 11:35am PT
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I respect Dave Wiens, who runs IMBA now, but their policy of low-key, non-confrontation hasn't really gotten them anywhere on the bigger issues. The big battles have been losses with access being taken away. That's the whole reason the STC, the mt bike group pushing this bill was formed. IMBA hasn't gotten anywhere and in fact has lost ground.
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Dec 20, 2017 - 11:39am PT
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I ride a lot in Park City, one of the busiest mt biking areas in the country, and also an area with many hikers and trail runners. The trails there are mostly single track and mostly multi use. By and large the interactions between hikers and bikers are pretty good. Sometimes I get off and get out of the way, sometimes the hikers do before I even have a chance to.
I'm sure there are problems, but given the amount of traffic in that area, the issues appear to me to be the exception rather than the rule.
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Dec 20, 2017 - 11:54am PT
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Not once did I ever see a mountain biker ever slow down when passing pedestrians on the trail, nor did they even move off the narrow trail to minimize the risk of collision with pedestrians. I've had this happen alot, even when I've on a mt. bike (such as when climbing up a trail), but I can't say it's representative of every interaction I've had or of every other biker I've seen. The problem with singletrack is that there's not a lot room to play with. When I have been on wider "trails", such as fire roads, I find that hikers often, if not create outright, frequently contribute to, negative encounters. They walk three abreast, have headphones on, let their dogs wander off leash, or generally seem oblivious that bikers might be on the same trail. I almost always slow down when passing hikers, if not to avoid freaking them out then to avoid raising a cloud of dust. I can't help but notice that sometimes the appear to have the attitude that you shouldn't be there, and my efforts at trail etiquette are completely disregarded.
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Cragar
climber
MSLA - MT
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Dec 20, 2017 - 11:56am PT
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Pretty funny there Rat. Oh, I have had hella bad trail outdoor experiences with all forms of outdoor/travel endeavors. The worst damage has been with runners. Our local single track (that was primarily hiked and biked for over 35 years) NOW has a lot of triple track and trampled vegetation, not to mention all of the newly run in trails up the fall-line for added challenges and to add tough-guy strava lines. All of this is in only 7-8 years.
Bikes for sure can be a nuisance but tend to be more friendly with the exception of the leg shaver/strava dicks. Fortunately, these kit-clad warriors don't hit the back country and are more of a front-country nuisance so I just fart in their general direction and/or yell in the ear as they pass. Also, most are all burnt from racing by about mid-July...
In the BC sub-ranges of Montana and Idaho I never really deal with the above crap, except that trail runners never saw a log or maintain a water bar.
When it comes to one-on-one personal interactions, it has been about equal for me. I think in part because runners feel they ultimately have the right-of-way and usually do not stop and make room for others. I have had negative bike encounters but if they skid or we scare each other they mostly apologize. Also, since we have way more trails that runners and hikers can use I believe we might have less conflict due to those folks tending to stay on the trails that are there for THEM and NOT bikes. In some way I see this as responsible use. Folks are different in these parts of the country. I STILL see a lot of mutual respect between user groups here. Unfortunately this is changing. I also think this change comes from close minded attitudes that are apparent on this thread.
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