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bootysatva
Trad climber
Idyllwild / Joshua Tree Ca.
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Any drilling or altering of the rock can diminish
the natural quality of an area for non climbers, and for climbers with a certain kind of reverence for the planet.
Drilling on lead from stances ( when top roping is not practical ) is the only form of bolting or altering that I personally can get behind. It's really the only form of bolting that I see as art.
Any mongrel can rap down and operate a drill along the way. I'm so glad that was not the case when Vallhalla was put up at Suicide rock.
We are starting to see 20 ft cliffs getting bolted at smith rocks, Joshua Tree etc...
In my not so humble opinion, this is ugly on a number of fronts.
The result of ever descending standards.
I realize this thread is about chipping and glueing etc... But I believe those practices stem from a belief that we climbers should be allowed free rein upon all cliffs.
I prefer to leave the rock as I found it, meet the terrain on its own terms, do what I can with what I have and not dumb things down to my low level of ability.
In my 43 years of climbing I have drilled a handfull of routes. None of those bolts have done much for humanity but it helped me with some of my feelings of inadequcy.
I put up a route, on lead, drilling two bolts from stances,at suicide Rock in the 70's that got chopped imidiatly because it had been soloed by the Congo Brothers. Now it's been rap bolted and in some spots you can stand on the epoxy that oozes from the holes where my two bolts had previously resided.
At Pine Creek trees and shrubs are being removed so first ascents can happen. Who knows what habitats and micro climates have been executed for our pleasure.
I like Bridwell and I would buy him a beer right now if I saw him- he really took some blows to his reputation after that "outdoor Climbing Gym " debacle.
One day, all this debate will be talus on the ground.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 4, 2017 - 08:05am PT
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Vitaliy......Ouray is a big, chiseled dry tooling gym eh.....I guess you haven’t climbed at the Pool Wall, Jimmy Cliff, Overlook, Technicolor Crag, Waterfall Wall etc. if those walls were within easy driving distance of the Bay Area they would be absolutely mobbed. They are far better than the close in offerings out there.
Interesting that people can visit the Ice Park in winter and be sudden experts on the local rock climbing
I posted this thread because of some manufactured routes on one of Ouray’s lesser crags the Rotary Park. My point was that just because a crag doesn’t offer up stellar natural lines it doesn’t mean that routes should be manufactured on it.
And no Vitaliy I don’t think it’s a cliff by cliff issue.
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WBraun
climber
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bootysatva
Yeah ...... I agree
And .... there is so much st00pid herd mentality in climbing now.
There's very little "according to time and circumstance" instead you have consciousness of everyone/everything the same (Herd Mentality).
Just a lot of brainwashed mentality towards everything .....
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originalpmac
Mountain climber
Timbers of Fennario
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Technicolor Wall. Now THAT'S a quality crag. Thos Mike Pennings routes up there are bitchin.
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skywalker1
Trad climber
co
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I'm a self taught climber from rural W.V. and a high school student at the time. The rock was sh&t. But I would try time and again to "send" my project and it was about 30 ft tall. To go "chip" that climb which I believe has not seen a second ascent (for good reason) would go against the whole point. Quarry, private land, public land. What is the goal? Community service?
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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All the hippy-dippy harming-the-earth, all-natural, ground-up is the only way, etc... falls to the wayside, if that same person dumps all that philosophy and manufactures her routes on her uncle's property
IMO it's not about harming the earth; all the rock removed for every bolt hole and manufactured hold in the world is nothing compared to one highway tunnel. The rock doesn't care what you do to it. It's about respecting your fellow climbers.
On public land everyone "owns" and can climb on the rock and you should leave the challenge that nature created as intact as possible for future climbers. On private land the only people who climb there (generally) are people with permission from the land owner.
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Darryl Cramer
Social climber
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Without regard to anyone’s personal taste or preference it seems clear to me that the most compelling reason chipped or artificial holds should be frowned upon is because climbing is relatively high impact sport and as a user group we will increasingly come into conflict with land managers and other more conservative land users/advocates. Once we move away from the mainline narrative (finding the natural line & minimal impact) we are doomed to have our activities regulated and controlled to a much greater extent than they would otherwise be even if the difference in actual impact is very minimal. We will lose support of the greater public who may actually never even see an climbing crag in real life.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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I guess you haven’t climbed at the Pool Wall, Jimmy Cliff, Overlook, Technicolor Crag, Waterfall Wall etc. if those walls were within easy driving distance of the Bay Area they would be absolutely mobbed. They are far better than the close in offerings out there.
Yes, I don't know sh#t about Ouray rock climbing, I have not gone there to rock climb. People from all over the US/world go there for easily top ropable ice and to dry tool, in a gym like environment, not usually to rock climb, my comment is focused on those tourony places that bring most of the winter business to the town of Ouray. And general chiseling.
Dry tooling anywhere chisels the sh#t out of rock creating bomber pick placements. Hammering while aiding chisels the sh#t out of rock too. Trundeling changes and damages rock. Placing bolts damages rock. Stepping on lichen and cleaning cracks changes the natural flora of the wall. Walking through brush and stepping on grass leaves impact.
Everywhere I dry tooled (aside from Birdbrain and Rusty Cage which are long routes) in Ouray is a load of manufacturing that has happened. But my comment is more general as I see things. I have never chiseled a single hold on purpose to make the route doable for me, but have climbed with people who have and don't care what they do or anyone else really. Climbing is a personal practice. Chisel, f*#k finger cracks with your dick, take victory whoppers from fixed heads, rap bolt 20 ft hand cracks. As long as you are not damaging an existing climb I don't really care what other people do...there are more important things to care about. That's just my view and I don't think it is right or wrong. :) When it comes to big mountains I don't think chiseling or rap bolting will be in general practice on giant faces. Although in the Alpinist I read an article about Conrad Anker and one of the Hubers piwerdrilling on their Latok climb. So maybe...i don't know. In the future drones will find the first Ascent lines and then film the REEL rock movie about the supermen visionary athletes climbing 5.14 routes up them. The future is bright. Get psyched!
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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My drone will chop your drone's route.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 4, 2017 - 03:52pm PT
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Vitaliy, we are going to have to agree to disagree. When you say anything goes when you put up a route, just don’t screw around with existing routes, did you stop to consider that a route, once It’s put up becomes an existing route?
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Yes. And different cliffs have different ethics and different people enjoying the routes, or not climbing at all. No one will be you to climb something you don't want. Some routes are too run out for some, some routes have too many bolts or too many spots for pro and some are manufactured. Lol
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AP
Trad climber
Calgary
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There is a Mountain Mag issue from the 80's by Mike Law on the Sydney sea cliffs.
Lots of manufactured holds but an interesting perspective. Maybe someone can post this as I don't have it at home.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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If people want to go drill pockets, chip and glue up a storm then maybe they should respect the public resource and go do it somewhere the route will return to dirt and rust long before anyone else comes across their vandalism?
But it's cool to drill stairs into the side of half dome. I put up 3 5.11 grade V routes on Whitney's East Face last year, free, in a day, with no bolts. But someone in the past decided to manufacture two giant trails with stairs to the top of it and build a house on top. Oohhhh nooooonoo. It totally changed our climbs....not.
All those people that do drill pockets in sh#t rock do not give a f*#k about what you think. Climbing anything is a selfish personal pursuit that carries no purpose to the rest of the world. Climb 5.15+ R X M18 on the North face of the Cerro Uguwhogivesaf*#k with a few nuts, it is as relevant to the world as little Susie climbing her first v3 in the gym. Really. Climbing is not some noble pursuit of Zen, unlike Instagram would suggest. Sending the gnar doesn't make you a knight.
Anyway, my opinion for this "DIALOGUE" is that I really don't give two shits about how other people climb. I enjoy my personal practice. And hope others do the same. Animals don't die every time someone chips a route at some random choss wall. Humans do a lot more relevant destruction when they dump fuel in the ocean, cut down forests, expand towns etc. Hell, mother nature destroys full towns at times. Chipped holds are first world problems. :)
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thebravecowboy
climber
The Good Places
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THocking: one word. turgid.
anywhoo:
if it trundles easy, let'er go. if it trundles too too easy, sometimes no touch. if it takes more than hands to clean, well, let it sit.
and if there is glue involved, that is fine if'n I can't tell, postfacto.
and if it is all bolts, then sh#t yeah, let 'em drill, smash, wrench the route free of the stone. the more bolted routes to focus the fixation, the better. let 'em climb mangreased holds.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Animals don't die every time someone chips a route at some random choss wall. Humans do a lot more relevant destruction when they dump fuel in the ocean, cut down forests, expand towns etc. Hell, mother nature destroys full towns at times. Chipped holds are first world problems. :)
Sometimes they are old world problems.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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precisely the problem.
That's YOUR problem. And problem for anyone else who decides to go on online forums and birch about some other person's style instead of climbing. As i said i just dont give a sh#t and my opinion is irrelevant as much as yours or some 5.1x cranker from rifle. Climbing is whatever you choose it to be for you. The true END is when you as an individual do more yapping than cranking.
Nothing wrong with yapping too. But the wild beast of climbing is and always will be as wild as you wanna make it. There will always will be remote, dangerous peaks that can kill you no matter if you bring a chisel, power drill, 2000 meters if rope to fix and whatever else to bring them down to your level. Namaste brah.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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What difference would it make if me as an individual had a raging hate for chiseled routes? Donini asked for a dialogue about the subject. I simply said that I don't care what people do because when people develop climbs or hiking trails there is a certain level of manufacturing that is happening. At times minor at times major. Again, I haven't chipped, but if I lived near one of those, may be I would. Although seems like a lot of work.
When I worked on the first and first free ascent of the emperor(https://www.mountainproject.com/v/the-emperor/110776954);, I really wished some holds were bigger and some more existed, but I didn't chip. But what if I have? How would anyone in the world be effected . The impact of hundreds of cars driving into the kings canyon daily and dozens of people hiking the Rae Lakes loop is much greater than if there is some extra hold on a route that now is climbed like once a year. Don't see why you care about me not caring either. Does it bother you I like rough sex and metal music? Or that I don't go to church every Sunday? Am I going to hell?
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skywalker1
Trad climber
co
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Are we back to Ouray? Just checking in.
S...
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Don't see why you care about me not caring either. Does it bother you I like rough sex and metal music? Or that I don't go to church every Sunday? Am I going to hell?
How are others ever going to build monuments to themselves when V has an attitude like this?
Also, I don't want to ever share a prison cell with you, especially because of your misdefinition of music.
Hell may be for those who can't both be just and just be.
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