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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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It's interesting to read these kinds of posts because of the voltage they can raise in most all commers.
The problem with Monahan's rant is that she doesn't (in my opinion) adopt the right approach for her ideas to find much traction, her conclusions don't necessarily follow her assumptions in the way she presents them, and while her tone is quite personal per the "offenders," it is entirely impersonal in regards to her own experience. That is, if she personalized her message by way of her own experience, her message would more likely strike home.
This is highly personal material because it hits at people's vulnerabilities. Self disclosure is the surefire way to make this stuff stick to a reader. So if Ms. Monhan showed some vulnerability and spoke of the issues from her own experience, we could "hear" her better. Not that females have to get vulnerable to be believed, rater when the message is personalized, it tends to have more power - in most any topic per both genders.
As is, you basically have someone yelling and blaming and shaming and the subject deserves a more serious, personalized rendering.
And when people go off on Ed for being "elitist," what does that mean? That he thought the issues through?
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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It's not the "elitism" that is Ed's achilles, it's the cocky "my pov is the best or most valid pov" attitude. It is a quite distinctive attitude he presents.
Why wouldn't we have differences? Why wouldn't they show up here in these posts? We are "wired" differently. Not only across sexes (we are sexual beings for chrissakes) but across individuals (we are all individual beings possessing unique individuality).
Variety is the spice of life.
I've paid little attn to this thread, can hardly remember the details of Erin's piece, but I remember I identified with BP's commentary.
"When she wears shorts that stop just at her butt/thigh line, I still take her seriously as a climber but I am looking at her body while she climbs. Don't blame me. Don't blame men. It's biology. I'm civilized and respectful and I understand societal boundaries and I give women plenty of space, but I will look and that's just the way my mind works. You cannot try to alter the human attraction to the opposite sex... It goes both ways. Women check men out too..." -B.P.
Healthy attitude.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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it seems I am often accused of being "elitist"
I don't have a sense of liberal guilt, but I do examine my attitude and thoughts and sometimes that results in acknowledging that others may have a point of view different than mine, and just as valid, and in some cases I change.
I don't know who wbw is (nor do I know HFCS) but obviously, you are entitled to write what ever you want on the forum, and certainly to act however you want in your lives. I'm not telling you how to live, what to think or "shaming" you in any way.
Warbler had us off on the tangent that the elite climbers are men, and at least I took that to imply that these are the only serious climbers, we could dismiss everyone else as not being serious. I counter argued that there are serious women climbers, doing things the best men climbers couldn't, at least not at the moment.
As far the OP, I merely suggested that however the blog post was written, that Monahan had expressed her experience, and the experience of other women in climbing. I also suggested that perhaps it was worth listening to those accounts and learning something about climbing culture as experienced by climbers who were not white men.
Cedar Wright's response was worth reading too.
If you are outraged by those suggestions then the problem is with you, not me.
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rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
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You're never wrong professor.
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c wilmot
climber
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Robert l- are you not a kiwi?
I am doubtful you understand American feminism enough to actually know what is being debated here
This is not about being respectful/disrespectful towards women
This is a debate about third wave feminism and its assertion that a male patriarchy is holding women back from achieving their full potential....
Which is an argument that some dismiss and others insist is real
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c wilmot
climber
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^^clearly you do not understand...
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WBraun
climber
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We've already elected 2 female Prime Ministers. Despite being middle-earth, we are well ahead of the US of A.
Theresa May is a moron, just like the moron men you've elected.
So yes you're well ahead of the morons Americans have elected.
Thus everything is equal, nothing but morons running the planet into the ground .....
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wbw
Trad climber
'cross the great divide
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I could be on a tangent here. But the point is, why are women so constantly belittled, with discussion often moving to what men supposedly do-better, when advocates for women 'push back'?
Constantly belittled?? Where? By whom? I work in the public school system where I have more female superiors than men. Pay is based on a strict salary schedule that uses only years of service and education to determine pay; no gender gap there.I have had many young woman go from my high school math class into engineering and other exciting math and science fields, quite a few of whom have cited my encouragement as part of the reason they have excelled. I was raised by a strong woman who will afford anyone respect, and expects it in return. I'm married to a very strong woman who has experienced great success in two different careers on two different continents.
It's not that I don't think woman get belittled by some men. It's these broad strokes and big statements about men as a class that really bugs me, and are counterproductive to what most of us seem to agree to aspire to: a world where we get judged by who we really are and what we are capable of. I can only be responsible for my own actions and attitude, and I will not take responsibility for the actions of some dumb ass dude who thinks a woman is less than he is simply because of gender. That is not my thing! (And by the way, I haven't read anything that Warbler has posted that makes me think it is his thing either.)
Yeah Ed, you don't know who I am. That's because unlike you I don't post constantly on ST, waiting for everyone to tell me how brilliant I am. That is obviously your thing. I don't accuse you of being "elitist". You do however come across as a "liberal elite", and I'm referring to a particular element of our political discourse that revels in their own brand of judgement and shaming. I read all of the rant by EM, and the tone of that piece of writing makes me ill.
Maybe she didn't reference any personal experience of what she was writing about, because maybe she doesn't have any personal experience. Of course, it's a whole lot cooler these days to play the victim, and then let the hand-wringing begin.
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Yury
Mountain climber
T.O.
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Largo:
The problem with Monahan's rant is that she doesn't (in my opinion) adopt the right approach for her ideas to find much traction, her conclusions don't necessarily follow her assumptions in the way she presents them, and while her tone is quite personal per the "offenders," it is entirely impersonal in regards to her own experience. That is, if she personalized her message by way of her own experience, her message would more likely strike home. I believe that Largo hit the main pain point of this article - lack of personal experience.
For a few years I felt that I was intellectually challenged when I honestly tried to understand such concepts as microagressions and objectification of women.
A few times I asked clarifying questions, but vocal feminists were not able to answer and were just sending me to read wikipedia.com and modernfeminism.com.
Then I realised that these vocal feminists were not really offended but were just fighting a war for betterment of women's life as they understood it and were told by the leaders of this movement.
To better understand Political Correctness and modern feminism you need to reread 1984 by George Orwell. Political Correctness enforcers are just volunteers of Thought Police.
This lady was not really offended by the writing of Cedar Wrights. She was a soldier on a mission. How she felt was not important at all to her.
She was told that such words were supposed to be offensive and she dutifully fought back.
BTW, I like an eloquent explanation of a modern feminism by Mark Manson:
https://markmanson.net/whats-the-problem-with-feminism
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WBraun
climber
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Stoopid men were and are the cause of feminism .....
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Yury
Mountain climber
T.O.
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Dingus Milktoast:
This lady was not really offended by the writing of Cedar Wrights. She was a soldier on a mission. How she felt was not important at all to her.
She was told that such words were supposed to be offensive and she dutifully fought back.
Lol oh you don't know that Yury. Its complete assumption. Did your leaders tell you to write this? Yes Dingus, you are right. This is my interpretation based on lack of personal perspective in her story.
By the way, Largo also noticed a lack of personal perspective.
Was he told by his leaders how to write his comments?
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Warbler, I don't believe you could find a post when I accused you of anything but over generalizing men's attributes translating into "elite" climbing. I think that climbing requires a number of skills not so easily tied to such a simple view of what climbing entails.
It is not true that risk seeking, strong young men are the only ones that achieve the "2 to 3%" accomplishments of climbing, or the only ones that could. To me climbing is defined by much more than those three attributes.
But just to make a point, if you are the one to decide whether or not a climb done by a woman is "valid" to throw into the mix of climbing accomplishments you have to acknowledge that your own climbing aesthetic could play a role in those choices.
Would you exclude Lynn Hill's free ascent of The Nose because her fingers were sized to fit the Changing Corners's pitch? Didn't Yuji go up and rerate that pitch, giving it a harder grade than Lynn had? And if Lynn's attributes are discounted in successfully pulling that climb off, who's the judge of which attributes are allowed to define elite performance, and which are not?
Here's a little research you could do... my hazy research indicates that a certain team of climbers that took the SW off-width circuit by storm attempted and failed to send this one:
which is at least a tribute to the difficulty of the route, FA Pamela Pack, that particular team trained hard and succeeded on many SW O.W. test pieces, and did a very difficult FA on their trip.
Don't we all use what ever physical and mental attributes we have to put up and get up routes?
The route above is difficult, I'll never do it, and it is one of many new O.W. routes at the extreme end of climbing. Those routes now represent the cutting edge of that style of climbing. The climbers who are the elite in that style are amazing, and I'm not at all surprised that a woman is among them.
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wbw
Trad climber
'cross the great divide
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Ed. Who is discounting Lynn Hill's ascent of the Nose? You seem to be hung up on this, and I'll reiterate what I said earlier: anyone that I've ever heard speak of it seems to think it is one of the greatest climbing accomplishments of all time, and I totally agree. Aren't you setting up a straw man argument? (I hope in the presence of your brilliance I am using the correct term here.)
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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At the time of Lynn Hill's FFA of The Nose a number of criticisms were made regarding that climb that seemed to invalidate it, among those criticisms were that Lynn's unique physical attributes enabled her to do things that others could not. This is along the lines of Warbler's criticism posted above.
I don't think it is a straw man argument. But it is important that when we all praise Lynn's accomplishment, we do so as an accomplishment of a climber who used their unique attributes in that accomplishment; isn't that the definition of "elite"?
When I read this sort of statement: "...I read all of the rant by EM, and the tone of that piece of writing makes me ill..." it brings up an interesting point. All of us read things that make us very uncomfortable ("makes me ill") especially if we can see ourselves as the subject of the writing in whole or part. This is a typical comment that men make when reading those sorts of articles. I felt very uncomfortable myself.
But put yourself in the position of a woman listening to the Podcast and hearing both the statement that was made and the response to that statement, and to all that has been written in this thread. It is not hard to imagine that many of them might feel very uncomfortable even to the extent that it "made them ill." Monahan's piece is certainly her response to listening to that Podcast, and it leaves little room to wonder what she thought of it.
It would seem this ability to exhibit empathy and understanding, while perhaps disagreeing with aspects of the "differing view," has left the realm of modern American social discourse. If attempting to exhibit that ability is a symptom of "liberal elitism" then perhaps your diagnosis is correct.
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c wilmot
climber
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Are you saying discussions have become a form of harassment ed?
Perhaps it's where EM comes up with such logic as this:
"Jokes like this come from a place of an American imperialist attitude where people assume that they can have an opinion on another culture’s practices."
some cultures practice fgm. In my 'imperial white supremicist opinion' (my label according to her) that's completely barbaric. Makes me ill...
Then again- I just think I can have an opinion
My personal opinion of what was written is that it is a bunch of hot air over nothing
Perhaps she should tone down her rhetoric a little
It's hard to take someone serious when they have such a negative opinion towards the very same people they seek to influence
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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On average, men and women's bodies have significant differences (that is, differences that are significant to climbing, such as height, weight, body fat %, center of mass, flexibility).
Some of these differences favor men, some women. (Anyone who has spent time at Indian Creek will have seen women who send "5.11" there (.75 and tight 1 Camalots, that are often solid jams for women but challenging for men), but who don't send 5.11 anywhere else and don't necessarily send "5.10" at IC).
Seems pretty obvious that there will be significant differences between men and women in climbing, especially in the aggregate and not focusing on the outliers. I'd guess probably more of the advantages favor men, especially in some specialties such as speed climbing or dyno'ing or perhaps bouldering in general, but (many) women have a big advantage in just being small and light.
Not sure why these obvious facts lead to a lot of people getting bent out of shape--seems to me that's is just one of the little things that make the world an interesting place.
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wbw
Trad climber
'cross the great divide
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Ed, I have a lot of empathy for the person that has truly been oppressed, whatever that term happens to mean in a given context. Had EM done better at telling her own experience of oppression by men, then her writing would carry a lot more credibility with me. Then, I could respectfully disagree (or maybe even agree) with some of her points.
The twenty something person that I referenced upthread grew up in a very wealthy family, went only to the best private elementary and secondary schools, and then only to Ivy League schools thru the master's degree level. She is bright, articulate and motivated. She lives in an expensive apartment in an expensive part of NYC that her parents pay for and has a very good job. She loves to rant about women being oppressed in a way reminiscent of EM. Has she been treated fairly and respectfully by every man she's ever encountered? Probably not, nor have I been treated respectfully by every woman (or man) that I know; there will always be as#@&%es in the world. Has she experienced "oppression" in the true sense? I think most people would say that she has experienced advantages in her life that most of us can hardly even imagine.
I think to speak out on oppression credibly, at least to a certain extent it is desirable to have actually experienced oppression. EM's targeting of a goofy guy who is known for routinely mouthing off in a rather free-form style comes across as more of a rant about First World problems, without really addressing anything substantial in terms of equality issues. And that hurts all women.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Mr. Largo, have you objectified the physical appearance of women in the past? I ask, since you are advocating vulnerable admissions and all.
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I objectify the appearance of women all the time, though only occasionally in print. I also love them, hate them, kiss then, get smacked by them, argue and bitch and complain and celebrate and work out and climb and bike and go museum hopping and all manner of other activities with women. It's called balance. We all struggle with this. That's the burden and fun of being human.
One of mankind's simple pleasures in life is beholding a beautiful woman and wondering ... what if? This happens less frequently than I wish because life is so much more - and SHOULD be more - than fantasizing about the boom boom. The fact that most properly formed males often go there, if only in their minds, neither fosters rape culture or demeans females.
This is an altogether different dynamic than the low-down strategy of bamboozling a girl into climbing with you in the hopes of getting laid, while presenting yourself as an impartial belayer out to get some climbing in. And I can fully sympathize with the female who just wants to go cragging and constantly gets hit on. That's not honorable behavior. Even if you can't take your eyes off those booty shorts and the comely corpus, glistening from effort and pulling for glory, you're supposed to "curb the dog" and do the right thing. Not be a creep.
But the way you seem to be playing it, as shared by a few militant feminists, is that curbing the dog isn't enough. You have to shoot it, drive over it with your car, burn it alive and renounce it for ever and ever.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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fruity sez...
Largo, that was an excellent post, literally and substantively.
wbw, excellent posts as well, thank you.
blah blah and warbler, too, lol
...
These SJWs and their conduct, eg at Middlebury, Yale and Evergreen, which to some extent I've been following by way of their targets over the last half year or so, really irk me. They have succeeded in polluting the liberal left and Democratic Party. At some point I'll have to read the EM piece to see if I get the sense she's tapped into and a part of that. If so what a shame.
If it continues, I'll have to think about going center independent libertarian, I guess. The far left is as crazy as the far right. Many of these SJW have no idea how lucky they are and how bad things could be. I bet many of them couldn't tell you without Google in which century the U.S. Civil War was fought. Awful.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fEAPcgxnyY
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