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WBraun
climber
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May 25, 2017 - 05:15pm PT
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but when I see there are immoral d#@&%ebags who use their peers for their own personal benefit
But then you people make the fatal mistake that action is not religion but masqueraded as religion.
In other words, it's nothing close to religion but just plain total bullsh!t .....
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yanqui
climber
Balcarce, Argentina
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May 25, 2017 - 05:24pm PT
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But then you people make the fatal mistake that action is not religion
I'm not sure who "you people are", but Werner, I am interested in what you mean. On the one hand, you seem to think belief and what you believe is so important and now you speak of action. Where is it that you stand?
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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May 25, 2017 - 05:36pm PT
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yanqui,
You’re a bit too mannerly to be here.
locker: Believing in "Fairy Tales" is for children...
Dude, I’m assuming that you’re only thinking about religion here with that “believing” stuff. Otherwise, come on. What DON’T people hold beliefs about? (Don’t be bringing science in here now. ) How about politics? How to raise children? How to get to somewhere you’ve never been? How the medical care in this country is going to turn out? How to make bread tomorrow? What you did a few years ago? Who you are?
It’s nothing but beliefs as far as the mind can see.
(But I think I understood you on your post.)
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WBraun
climber
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May 25, 2017 - 05:38pm PT
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I stand for the Absolute Truth ........
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yanqui
climber
Balcarce, Argentina
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May 25, 2017 - 05:58pm PT
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I stand for the Absolute Truth
If I said that, I'm afraid it would mean I stand for nothing at all, so I hope that means more for you than it does for me. Cheers Mr. Duck!
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rbord
Boulder climber
atlanta
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May 25, 2017 - 06:06pm PT
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I stand for absolute truth
Stand, sit, religion, science, whatever. Absolute truth is gonna be absolute truth regardless of what we believe. IM(weak and lazy)HO, what and why we believe is subsumed by absolute truth, not the other way around.
If you mean that what you believe is absolute truth, well, that's cool. As JL said, we all want to see the plan, shooby doo wa.
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Fossil climber
Trad climber
Atlin, B. C.
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May 25, 2017 - 06:15pm PT
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In childhood we are indoctrinated in the Tooth Fairy, the Easter Bunny, Santa Claus, a loving God, and the virtue and superiority of our country or race. Anybody who becomes and adult and still believes in any of them has not been paying attention.
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WBraun
climber
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May 25, 2017 - 06:16pm PT
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I believe in Santa Claus.
Too bad ..... :-)
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nah000
climber
no/w/here
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May 25, 2017 - 08:38pm PT
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the directly relevant is near to the end, but i found the whole discussion to be worth a listen:
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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May 25, 2017 - 09:34pm PT
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hey there say, nah000... say, don't know who the guy is, but,
that was all very true and very well said...
i HAVE seen that being done to folks (shunning them, etc) so much, through many places i have been and lived, and all due to them:
NOT being 'productive enough' or bringing in money, or, being marketable, etc...
well, you know... like he said...
i have a little sister, who would be in that category, and i have a
granddaughter, too... and my list goes, on, as well...
we are of VALUE though... and they are, too...
and, we all DO have all those 'tendencies' all through all human nature,
some have more than others but-- the more 'perfect' society and man pushes to be (and thinks they are) the MORE they reject what
they 'perceive' to blemished and useless, :(
very very sad...
well, i did not say it as good as he did, but thanks for sharing the
clip... (don't know who he is, and i MAY find i'd not agree with other stuff, he might say, BUT, this is very very clearly seen-- if folks, look around them...
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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May 25, 2017 - 10:19pm PT
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In my long persuit of religion and truth I've seen and experienced some amazing things.
But not one single person here cares, is interested, or wants to know.
If I told you, you would wad it up and throw it in my face.
And if you did it would be because you believe something, not because you looked for yourself.
The only way to find truth, a true sense of immortality (the goal of all religions) and an understanding of the universe deeper than physics is to look.
The non-climber looks at a steep Yosemite slab and shakes their head and walks away saying it is impossible. A climber looks, and looks, and the holds begin to appear. Then through a transendent knowledge of the physical self and what the body can do, plus an insane urge to try, the climb unfolds before you.
And that is the best metaphor I could ever give for mastering life.
That plus, the climber is an immortal being who can never die, and there you have religion.
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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May 25, 2017 - 11:08pm PT
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hey there say, spider... oh my... i am glad that you share...
sure won't throw anything in your face, :)
that is how we learn about folks, is to let folks share, and
then, keep it all for to understand our friends, :)
it doesn't mean we all have to stop being ourself,
if we don't agree, :)
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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May 26, 2017 - 07:51am PT
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Spider, I feel your pain
I was there once, I was on a quest for truth
But you have to define what is truth, a book can't be truth, saying Christianity is truth is very untruthful
all you can say is "my experience with God was true"
and then untruthfully explain that the Christian God was responsible
So this is true
In my long persuit of religion and truth I've seen and experienced some amazing things.
We all feel amazing things, we all have mystical experiences
But if you take each experience and do a critical assessment of it, it can be explained by "Natural" causes.
It's all about looking harder, and knowing that "the holds started to appear" is wrong, the holds were always there, you just didn't look hard enough.
I was very spiritually inclined during my youth with a new age eastern theology, I meditated every day, I strongly felt the presence of God's Love, and believed in a purpose and afterlife. But as I searched harder, the more the pieces fell apart, and the more I needed to apply Natural phenomenon to what I was experiencing, and all the more it made sense without God.
In other words, there is no magic, every thing can be explained truthfully without God or any other kind of unknown forces, it's all Naturally evident.
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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May 26, 2017 - 09:26am PT
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I'm not telling Spider what to think or do, I'm just explaining that evolution is possible past "His" personal state of spirituality.
and the thing about truth, can "you" call a book the "truth"?
I can't
It seems that any time we try and discuss religion, someone has a problem with the discussion and they "feel" like we are shoving it down their throats
If they could just express themselves honestly, they wouldn't feel threatened, but they shield themselves from the discussion instead by shutting it down
If they felt more open to the possibilities, and not tied down with dogma, they would be able to debate these topics with ease
just my opinion
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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May 26, 2017 - 11:41am PT
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I don't know if people would still kill each other as often as they do if there were not a religion.
No way to tell, really.
I've been reading a book about how Al Qaeda formed, and the history of the dudes who gathered around Bin Laden's money, and they absolutely want to kill anyone who isn't a muslim. They even justify killing other muslims, despite it being expressly forbidden in the Koran.
Ghandi was killed over religious differences. So were a lot of people. Look at what happened in the Inquisition, when they tried to cleanse the Christian population.
Stuff like that will always go on, but so will wars, which kill far more people than terrorism does, including innocents.
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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May 26, 2017 - 12:54pm PT
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Craig Fry: But if you take each experience and do a critical assessment of it, it can be explained by "Natural" causes.
Speculatively. Interpretatively.
. . . as I searched harder, the more the pieces fell apart, and the more I needed to apply Natural phenomenon to what I was experiencing, and all the more it made sense without God.
It seems to me that you’ve moved from one interpretation to another.
Neebee and DMT praise you for “sharing” your experiences. Indeed, it’s often interesting to hear what other people think they’re seeing. It also seems to be a lot more friendly and open-minded than saying what-is-what dogmatically or—as DMT points out—what others should do. It seems to me that every one has his or her own reality up front and unavoidable.
We all feel amazing things, we all have mystical experiences . . . But . . . .
!!! Why is there a “but” apparently needed?
As I said above, one might be unhappy that he or she discovered that they've found themselves to be disillusioned.
Another person might reply: "Don’t get angry about it. Be happy!"
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Norton
Social climber
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May 26, 2017 - 01:03pm PT
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but back to the question, is religion doing more harm than good?
religion CAN do a lot of good
religion can give many people certainty of purpose and comfort
hope for an afterlife
moral and ethical guidance
a reason to get up early on Sunday mornings
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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May 26, 2017 - 01:10pm PT
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Yes, definitely more harm than good. The Christian right in America voted to the tune of around 80% for Trump despite his egregious short-comings as a "moral" person. A large percentage of Muslims, not just Islamists, believe that death is the appropriate punishment for heresy/blasphemy. It's not all that long ago that the same was true for Christians. Religion has been treated with kid gloves for too long. I think it is a good thing that non-believers are finally not afraid to speak up. Currently, there is no way that an Atheist could ever make it to the Oval Office. I'm hoping (I used to assume) that it will happen in the relatively near-future.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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May 26, 2017 - 02:54pm PT
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It's all about looking harder, and knowing that "the holds started to appear" is wrong, the holds were always there, you just didn't look hard enough.
dear, dear, DrFry.. who was it jus say'in, "we shout out what we,re lookin to solve within in our selves"! Dude, go back and reread spiders post and then read what you wrote?
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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May 26, 2017 - 03:17pm PT
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I don't know if people would still kill each other as often as they do if there were not a religion.
Base
Test this scientist.lol. Try giving the great white shark, or the African lion religion and see if it changes their mind about murdering little antelopes and seals to live..
Don't you think man killed each other before God, "came around"?
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