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Moof
Big Wall climber
Orygun
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Feb 21, 2017 - 12:18am PT
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So the curvy looking corners aren't just my imagination?
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Feb 21, 2017 - 09:31am PT
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For you tech guys here's a great look into the science of folding.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Could this technique be in the future for ledge beds? ;)
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Feb 21, 2017 - 10:19am PT
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Hee hee hee. Deucey is really milking the suspense, isn't he??
Wait'll you guys see this thang. John is doing a brand new thang!
And the photo above with Marek, showing the structural rigidity of the hybrid tube design [brilliant!] but with the corners STILL hidden - is fabulous.
C'mon, guys - try to guess! What has Deucey done with the corners. He has hinted above by saying repeatedly, "good bye to block corners". Can anyone guess?
NOTE: No fair guessing if you have already seen his spoiler video posted elsewhere, because you know the secret!
The charts and graphs are pretty cool, but still a little too complex for this professional engineer. Certainly the easiest to understand is that flex varies by the cube of the tube length, which explains why the Metolius design is so "flexy".
But putting bigger tubes in the middle bits of the four sides makes perfect sense.
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Feb 21, 2017 - 12:44pm PT
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Be sure to tie your D4 down.
A big ledge is like a kite . . . . or a hang-glider.
Wind gusts of 199 MPH in parts of the High Sierra - SFGate
I found out, the hard way, that I needed to put short pieces of steel tubing both inside and outside at the ends of my carbon fiber tubes, especially if I was going to flag the ledge above a haul bag. Otherwise, the tubing would split and delaminate like crazy. The extra weight of the reinforcement doesn't seem to be that big of a deal.
For my homemade ledge, I made corner blocks with stubby plugs, similar to what FISH uses, instead of blocks with holes. This made the blocks a little lighter, because my carbon fiber tubing is rather large, at 1.18" OD.
I sawed 1" aluminum plate into an L-shape, and then use a hole saw to form the cylindrical plugs. A hand saw was used to clean off the small amount of corner scrap.
For the tubing connections at the center of the long sides, I used external sliding steel tubes. When assembling the ledge, everything goes together easily, until the last long side connection. I butt the two tubes together at the angle, and then toggle them into alignment, and slide the steel tube over the joint. This allows for a tight bed, without tensioning straps, and is pretty fast to assemble and take down. PTPP timed me in October at something like 90 seconds to take the ledge down, fold it, and wrap the straps around, ready for the haul bag.
I use duct tape (what else?) to limit how far the steel tube can slide one way or the other. The suspension straps cinch on the carbon tubing right there, and prevent the steel tube from sliding off of the butt joint.
I am not going to talk about how I dealt with an A5 Expedition Fly that was just THAT much too small for my ledge to fit inside. I will only mention that Wino Tower is a very classic spot to get stuck in the rain for an extended stay, and not just because the roof runoff from above hits right there.
I will cut my long ledge tubes down about 1 inch each, and then my ledge will fit inside the A5 Expedition Fly.
How do you get rid of the weird smell of the waterproof coating on the inside of the yellow fabric? Can I use aerosol urethane wood varnish? Or will that become brittle and crack?
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Moof
Big Wall climber
Orygun
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Feb 21, 2017 - 12:58pm PT
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So pre-bent radiused aluminum elbows? Where can I find the leaked video? Round corners would be nice, courious how well it would all pack up.
Not sure where I can scrape up 1.2k, might have to wait till after the fence gets redone, and the house gets painted. Ugh. Growing up sucks.
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 21, 2017 - 01:57pm PT
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We've set a date for the Kickstarter--March 1--thinking of selling three ledges at cost, $450 off retail, so get in early!
Edit: early adopter discount is $450.
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ecdh
climber
the east
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Feb 21, 2017 - 02:36pm PT
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the algorithms are all way over my head but i get what loosing 5kg means and no extra last step hanging in space forcing a spreader bar by torch light, so boom, im in.
deuce, what can we hear about the fly? winter exped style? did you put the little window somewhere it can be looked thru when sitting? venting? weight?
will a BD fly fit if not?
and if i drop by tasmania can i score a peek?
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Batrock
Trad climber
Burbank
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Feb 21, 2017 - 04:20pm PT
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I'll be on Kickstarter ready to push the button on March 1st
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Feb 21, 2017 - 04:56pm PT
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"As long as you've got the curves, baby, I've got the angles...."
Wolfman Jack on Clap for the Wolfman by The Guess Who
John's going to be live on Tasmanian radio "tonight" [for us] at around 730pm Pacific time for us. I'll try to find a link, would be fun to listen.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Feb 21, 2017 - 05:01pm PT
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6.3kg. Impressive!!
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Moof
Big Wall climber
Orygun
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Feb 21, 2017 - 07:19pm PT
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Out of curiosity, what is the back story on the Tasmania move? Cheap early retirement, adventure, something else?
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Feb 21, 2017 - 08:46pm PT
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Will the fly be a winter exped style?
PTPP and Anita used the D4 fly last October on New Dawn to Dawn Wall. We climbed into two moderate rain storms on that climb: two days and nights on Lay Lady Ledge, and three days and nights on Wino Tower. Ryan used the A5 expedition fly for his FISH double ledge. Setting up Ryan's ledge and fly before the storm rolled in was NBD, but in a crisis situation, that setup could lead to an epic tale of pure misery.
Pete's well-seasoned appraisal on that wall was that the regular fly for the D4, with no floor, made more sense than having to get an assembled portaledge inside a tent-like Expedition fly. For one thing, you can always hang the ledge from the fly, with it still furled in the bag, and rapidly unfurl it if it starts raining (furl it accordian-style, eh?). Also, the Expedition fly's blue bottom tends to collect water below the ledge, and sometimes it's necessary to poke extra holes in the fabric to drain the water. Therma-Rest pads, or similar, offer pretty good insulation, and judicious use of sleeping bags can seal off the holes in the bed at the corners and where the side straps connect on the long sides. A better solution might be to have velco-capable flaps that seal off the bed completely.
Pete said that the D4 fly, with no bottom, was absolutely The Better Way, and was The Best he'd ever slept under on a big wall.
I might cut the blue bottom off of my A5 Expedition Fly to derate it, but to also make it more like the D4 fly.
One thing that spooked me on that wall, was use of a camp stove, even for short times, under a rainfly. Carbon monoxide has very high affinity for the blood's hemoglobin; carbon monoxide is approximately 230 times stronger than the affinity between hemoglobin and oxygen. So, even a small amount of CO can rapidly tie up the blood's oxygen transport mechanism, and lead to headache, fatigue, or worse.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_monoxide_poisoning
What about a nomex-type fabric heat-resistant hood, sleeve, port and bonnet near the apex of a rainfly, to provide an effective chimney to vent combustion byproducts from a stove? If you're going to go large on the Big Wall, you might as well go Yuge, Let Me Tell You.
On that Big Wall, the D4 was typically not flagged above a haul bag. The FISH, with its spring-steel frame was the preferred belay ledge, and it is capable being pulled up against obstacles, twist into a pretzel, and then magically spring back when it finally pops loose. An aluminum frame may not have the same resiliency. Also, the large size of the D4 may further impair its suitability for flagging above a haul bag.
With respect to this thread, and similar zeitgeisten about improving the state of the art, just remember:
The only thing worse than trying new things, and potentially not getting it right the first time, is doing the same old thing, over and over and over.
Doing the same thing, over and over and over, and expecting a different result, is the very definition of "crazy".
 Albert Einstein
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 21, 2017 - 09:43pm PT
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Tom, actually that was not a D4 ledge you guys had up there, though it was a frame of my design with the traditional block corners.
The first D4 was still being built when you were up there--see the photo of Werner's shop earlier in this thread--that yellow ledge in the background was the first pre-prototype D4.
Edit: all good, Tom! Keep up the good ideas! Cheers
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Feb 21, 2017 - 11:31pm PT
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^^^^^^
I'm sorry I mixed up things.
I was an observer to the D4 ledge experience of others, and not an active user thereof.
PTPP raved, all the way up the Big Wall, about your ledge.
I wanted to impress that positive energy that was expressed about its superiority.
As a mechanical engineer, myself, I wanted to also bring forth an objective evaluation - and not a condemnation - in order to hasten the advance of the state of the art.
You, John, are the King Of The Portaledge Paradigm.
My intent is furtherance, not hinderance, nor idle criticism.
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John Mac
Trad climber
Breckenridge, CO
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Feb 22, 2017 - 06:53am PT
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Great stuff. The suspense is killing me!
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Feb 22, 2017 - 09:16am PT
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Voice of Dr. Evil:. "Someone throw me a frickin bone"
All right, Johnny.....
...Throw 'em out Innovation #2.
;)
P.S. I see you pulled down "Mini Me"
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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Feb 22, 2017 - 09:35am PT
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Please include a kg to lbs conversion chart. ;)
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Moof
Big Wall climber
Orygun
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Feb 22, 2017 - 09:52am PT
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6.3 kg = 1.0 stone.
So if I am following correctly we have hybrid poles with varying diameter and strategic double butting (though not exactly as shown in the corner block drawing). Lighter, stiffer, no spreader bar.
We also are in for curved corners that become part of the stiffness of the frames (more than receptacles for the poles). It sounds like there may be more than meets the eye here? Duece seems coy...
The suspension is 4-point, which probably cut out a good 1/3-1/2 kg or so?
The fly looks to have a frog-eye vent, which would be a nice addition on its own. Fly looks to have some buckles on the bottom to solidly lash it to the bed, hopefully these can be attached and adjusted while inside the ledge?
Without a good view of the floor, it looks like there are no groin level cutouts. I have to admit that I've taken advantage of such conveniences in my Econoledge many times for late night relief. So a piss bottle will be necessary even for the outside guy. No biggie.
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 22, 2017 - 10:24am PT
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Love all the sleuthing, hope it inspires more design innovation.
Really gotta focus on building the next prototypes and to get a bit more fit so I can test Prototype #2 in Mt. Buffalo soon, and of course the details for the Kickstarter next week, so I don't think I will have time to discuss the technical details of the other new aspects.
But there's an article out there with a photo...
(Oh, what the heck--here ya go: http://www.businessinsider.com.au/the-secret-to-conquering-the-toughest-climb-in-the-himalayas-may-lie-in-a-shed-in-tasmania-2017-2 )
Please support the Kickstarter if you can, March 1 (might be Feb 28 in USA). My wife is helping with the swag/perks, I am just focused on making sure the first batch of 28 (plus a few more protos) is the best we can make them.
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Regan
Big Wall climber
Poland/Scotland
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Feb 22, 2017 - 10:58am PT
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I just got the D4 Proto #1
Thanks Deuce
The first test in the next week.
Yeeehaw!
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