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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Dec 31, 2016 - 10:13am PT
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Ed, with due respect I know you mean well, but so do we. Nobody wants to hurt the little
froggies. But it isn't about the froggies. It's strictly about lawyers, bureaucrats, and money.
Sadly, it's our money, our rock, and our froggies, none of which are benefiting from this clown
show.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Dec 31, 2016 - 10:15am PT
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Ed, I've met with three of the revolving door Supervisors of the ANF. They sign what's put in front of them.
you seem to buy into the "strong man" vision of governance... and desire the "proper" strongman...
maybe your effort should go into getting "what's put in front of them" documents that incorporate actions you feel are appropriate. that would mean being engaged in a much larger process than whining about the CBD and all that...
by the way, the laws are not written to prohibit, they are written to identify the environmental issues and mitigate with the intent to permit... but you're going to have to organize.
Organizing is a consensus process you might not want to be involved in... as most climbers would not, and also the need to accept the consensus and act on the basis of the consensus. I suspect this is anathema to you.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Dec 31, 2016 - 10:17am PT
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if by "this clown show" you mean the writing of the Angeles Forest Management Plan, you've totally missed the boat... climbers, and climber concerns, are not represented in that document.
This does not speak well of the climbing community, in my opinion, if they actually are concerned about access issues.
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Dec 31, 2016 - 10:26am PT
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Ed,
I practically made a career of fighting this closure from 2005-10.
I used many of my employees, office supplies, personal money and a huge amount of time and energy in this fight.
You have no idea what you are talking about.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Dec 31, 2016 - 10:51am PT
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By "clown show", I remember climbers posting that the best way to resolve the issue was to publicly post that "if there were no frogs, there would be no issue (hint, hint!)"
That really has to endear the climbing community to a whole lot of people in the environmental community, and to those who are legally charged with protecting our various wild species.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Dec 31, 2016 - 11:04am PT
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the laws are not written to prohibit
Do you believe in the Tooth Fairy, too? For the sake of keeping this civil let us grant you that
axiom in yer logic. However, another axiom implicit in yer reasoning is that the CBD and the
Forest Circus' bureaucrats are acting in both the froggies' and the general public's best
interests and that can not be proven in this or any court.
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Heyzeus
climber
Hollywood,Ca
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Dec 31, 2016 - 11:25am PT
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Ed, it sounds to me that we all agree here- ultimately climbers performed poorly via the system and generally didn't show up in any significant way (for whatever reasons). I think we agree on that, right?
I disagree that people are just whining and complaining. Even if we are, sometimes whining and complaining is productive. Sometimes not. I have to ask, why are you whining and complaining about our whining and complaining? Maybe I'm just reading you wrong, but your posts are verging on hostile and ad homenien. So I have to wonder, why are so personally interested in this? Did you use to climb here? Maybe you just like to argue, maybe you're trying to help us, maybe you're a CBD supporter, I don't know. Maybe you're just concerned about climber access everywhere and see this as a bad sign. If that's the case, I personally don't find your dismissive and disdainful attitude in the conversation particularly motivating, no offense intended.
I think people down here really care about the place, it was special and served a large population. Care enough to overcome the inertia to do something about it? I don't see it. Can the AF? I don't see it. Maybe I just lack vision.I can write some emails and go to some meetings,but at this point of my life, that's about it, and I think the solution is beyond that and was never going to amount to much anyway. We need competing studies by "experts", lawsuits, and political will. Which means money. Like you pointed out, it's about the law, and that requires lawyers and paid scientists, etc, so maybe this discussion will lead to that.
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Dec 31, 2016 - 02:30pm PT
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Question:
If it can be shown that climbing activity is contributing to the extinction of the MYLF, would you still want it to be opened? Should we keep it open until the proof is irrefutable?
Just trying to understand the mindsets here.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Dec 31, 2016 - 02:43pm PT
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The Forest Service and the general government is being held accountable to the law by the various interests involved, the CBD being one of them, not involved in an organized way, apparently, is the climbers.
While this is an example of a particular place, Williamson Rock, the activities of all climbers in the US will face increasing scrutiny and land managers will have to answer the question: "why are climbers seemingly exempt from the environmental regulations?"
Various environmental organization may very well take the supervising organizations to court to compel them to enforce the laws vis-a-vis climber impact on the environment. Without good organization at many different levels local, national, international the climbers will not be sitting at the table (the Access Fund is only one organization, obviously local organizations are very important as they are the ones that will manage the solutions).
Climbers working in an organized way with the land managers is important. While it is laudable for individual climbers to do so, in the end any solution requires that some organization deals with the land managers, to both represent the consensus view of the climbers and to also compel climbers to "follow the rules."
For instance, we are probably failing to regulate power drilling in the wilderness where I climb, there is no strong climber organization and the land manager, while sympathetic to individual climbers may be compelled to enforce the ban. They have few tools for doing so in the face of an unorganized climber cohort. Climbers acting irresponsibly can affect access for all climbers.
I don't have any solution for this except for climbers to organize, Warbler points out a good example in San Diego. Working with the land managers, climbers can be seen as interested stewards of the land, and a resource for those land managers to use. The land managers don't write the laws, they have to execute them... complaining to them about those laws is futile, that's what electing your congressional representation is all about... and complaining to them.
The saga of Williamson Rock has been going on for a long time, it is clear that the climbers' approach to seeking resolution hasn't worked. As climbers, we should learn our lessons from this and formulate new approaches to interacting with the land managers. Complaining that the "system is rigged" against us, true or not, isn't going to change anything. Time to move forward with a very different strategy.
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Batrock
Trad climber
Burbank
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Dec 31, 2016 - 02:53pm PT
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Says the guy who's home crag is the Valley.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Dec 31, 2016 - 05:23pm PT
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If the CBD discovered an endangered ant on El Cap is there any doubt that they would try to
get climbing stopped on it? Then we'd hear Doc Ed sing a different tune, wouldn't we? ;-)
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EdBannister
Mountain climber
13,000 feet
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Dec 31, 2016 - 05:47pm PT
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Angelus National Forest Policy, undocumented, pardon the word, but implemented, has been it is easier to close it than clean it up. First implemented at Big Tujunga picnic areas after they got tired of broken beer bottle glass and soiled diapers left behind.
If the Forest Supervisor does not want the place open, he or she can commission a stack of studies a foot high to support the preferred point of view, no one else has both the resources and the necessary approval to conduct the studies. The Supervisor can get whatever result they want.
Reality in the National Forest.
add the lack of understanding of what bolting is, power or otherwise, it is just simpler to not have climbers, than to need to impose a rule and be policemen for an item of style with no import outside the climbing community.. so. the reasonable and easily implementable course from a management perspective? Closed to climbers.
This is the legacy of Bob Kamps, and those who signed his petition requesting Joshua Tree staff to regulate bolting, in order for it to happen, it had to go national, and it did. There will forever be less access.
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Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
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Dec 31, 2016 - 09:26pm PT
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Whoa, that dude Bittner is full-on d#@&%e. Amazing. Glad they finally got him.
BAd
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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it's not just power drilling in the wilderness,
the environmentalist would like to understand how it is we are allowed to put up routes which might involve "improvements" (we'd call that "gardening", for instance, or bolting) without having to go through the regular process...
If you Williamson Rock people think I'm against opening it for climbing then you are being way to reactionary... I'm saying that you have failed to make your case.
And while the CBD seems to be everyone's favorite organization to hate on, the other plaintiffs in the case were: the Sierra Club, the California Native Plant Society, the Defenders of Wildlife, and the Los Padres ForestWatch.
The judges finding in this case:
'In summary, the court holds that the FWS and NMFS acted "not in accordance with law," see 5 U.S.C. § 706(2)(A), when they failed to issue ITSs [incidental take statment] with their biological opinions on the 2005 revised forest plans for the four southern California forests.'
http://casetext.com/case/center-for-biological-diversity-v-us-fws
The details are in the body of the brief...
Now I am very concerned about what happens in Yosemite in particular, and believe that forging good relationships with the land managers will be an important aspect of continuing to have the privilege to climb in Yosemite Valley, including first ascents.
The raptor closure program is seen to be mostly successful, I believe.
There is a series of trail building projects that help to route climbers to and from climbs that minimizes impact, a collaboration between the climbing community and the NPS.
There is the FaceLift event which is run by the climbing community (the YCA) in collaboration with the NPS which is seen as a tremendous help to the park.
There is a Climbing-Ranger program, and YOSAR, all of which help to strengthen communications.
I assume if an endangered species were found on El Cap, we'd all go through the process. As it is, routes on El Cap can be closed during the nesting and fledging seasons for raptors. It is honored by the climbing community.
If some endangered species where found living in the cracks, I'm sure we'd have to wait for a study before being able to climb... I believe that there is sufficient leadership in the climbing community and good relationship with the NPS to see such a process through to a workable final solution, a solution that might very well prohibit climbing on some cliffs.
If that happens in my lifetime, I'd certainly be a part of the process if I could be of any help.
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Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
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Really excellent points, Warbler. I've wondered, too, about raptor closures generally when I know that peregrines do well in urban environments with all kinds of noise and chaos around. I guess fat pigeons make good eating!
BAd
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10b4me
Mountain climber
Retired
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Jan 1, 2017 - 08:47am PT
Really excellent points, Warbler. I've wondered, too, about raptor closures generally when I know that peregrines do well in urban environments with all kinds of noise and chaos around. I guess fat pigeons make good eating!
BAd
It's more about not disturbing the nests.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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I dunno if it's because your wife is an environmental biologist, if I have her credential right, but I don't see climbing as being a privilege any more than hiking, or fishing or camping is when we're talking about public land, like Yosemite, but you continually state that you do.
What I object to, in the above attack on Ed H and his wife, is that the CONTEXT is lost.
We are talking about the privilege of doing our sport in a situation in which we may be doing harm to the environment. No one is arguing about a non-wilderness place that has no potential impacts on endangered species.
Your argument seems to revolve around
-few people are offended by bolts---so they don't matter.
-there have been vanishingly rare situations where naturalists lied and took actions to falsify information, and therefore ALL natural science should be seen as BS.
-people don't want to get involved with the process as it evolves, but after the fact they have the right to throw everything out, because they don't like the impact. That doesn't seem reasonable.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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If the CBD discovered an endangered ant on El Cap is there any doubt that they would try to
get climbing stopped on it? Then we'd hear Doc Ed sing a different tune, wouldn't we? ;-)
Sort of like saying that if the financial support were there, you'd kill every patient that walked through the door. Easy to attack people with hypotheticals.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Warbler, et al.
while I bring up these issues, I am still a climber and I still do first ascents (though somewhat slower pace now) and I am concerned about the issues... the fact that my wife is a restoration biologist (a plant ecologist actually) and she actually has experience working on environmental mitigation, and happens to know about the laws makes it all the more real to me in terms of the potential challenges to climber access.
Increasingly, climber access is being looked at in these land use documents, and the question is, why are we allowed the access we have?... for instance at Pinnacles the most obvious sign left behind by climbers, unlike any other user, is the chalk, which draws attention to the bolts, which then generates questions regarding the affect on plant life on the cliffs.
While we climbers know we don't go everywhere on the cliff, and that we are not going to "grid bolt" cliffs to allow a gym-like setting, the environmentally concerned organizations (in this case the California Native Plant Society) had no such knowledge. Making the seemingly straightforward extrapolation that climbers threatened plant life on the entire cliff, plant life that had not been surveyed.
While I was able to explain it to my wife, Debbie, what the climber impact was most likely going to be, she was able to explain it to the CNPS (of which she is a member). An example of working together even if a serendipitous situation. However, the "word of an expert" is not enough, these matters will undoubtably be studied.
In Yosemite there are few restrictions on climber access. Most climber impact is not on the cliff, but on the approach to the cliffs. Working with the NPS to regularize the climber access allows the routing of this access to avoid sensitive areas, the climbers just have to follow the trail... strangely to my mind, when the access posts were put up, a number of climbers thought it an infringement of some sort (on their right to hack yet-another-access path?) and removed the posts. The act of a few climbers certainly didn't help the idea that the climbers could be responsible and trusted to "follow the designated trails."
As more climbers climb in Yosemite, these sorts of impacts grow, and the need to create access which satisfies both the climber requirements and the NPS' required management responsibility of all the resources in the park.
In my opinion, this is best done in cooperation with the land managers.
This opinion does not by any means abdicate our responsibilities to hold the land managers accountable, as your story about the raptor closures shows. We must also realize that we, climbers, will be held accountable also.
So at least some climbers should become better educated about access issues, and to engage both their local climbing community and the land managers.
I find the tired rhetoric of "us poor, noble, liberty seeking climbers" vs. "the tyrannical state and out of control environmentalists" to be very counterproductive to achieving the goals we all share, to gain access to climbing resources and be good stewards of those resources.
If climbers cannot expand their point-of-view regarding climbing resources, they will be buried by the much larger number of other user interests, there are many fewer climbers than anyone else.
Oddly, climbers have one very strong attribute in their favor, they actually visit these vertical wildernesses. Cooperation with the land managers, biologists, etc, can be a huge positive for both sides. Your understanding of raptor nesting helped the land managers achieve a much better solution than the one they had initially adopted, to the benefit of the raptors, and to the management of the land. You also had the consensus of an organization of climbers with enough discipline to realistically present the case that you were representative, with the flip side being that you could communicate the plan to the climbers effectively, with a high probability that that plan would be adopted by the climbers.
My feeling is that individuals are an important part of affecting land management policy, but in the end its all the climbers, not individual climbers, that provide weight to both the arguments, and to the implementation of future plans.
One can get a flavor for the issues by looking at management plans for climbing, e.g.:
New River Gorge
Rumney Rocks
Castle Rocks, Id
Vermont Agency for Natural Resources
Indian Creek
Landmanager outreach:
BLM's Climbing Program
local climbing organization interactions
what's an 'MOU'?
collaborative efforts:
http://www.climbingmanagement.org
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Outside the Asylum
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From several kilometres away. No intentional "cleaning" that I know of, no bolts, established fewer than 50 years ago. Just lots of traffic. Perhaps not analogous to Williamson Rock, or Kevin's crags near San Diego, but a critic could easily use this sort of thing to "prove" that climbers have a negative environmental (and visual) impact.
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