Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
|
Dec 16, 2006 - 08:55pm PT
|
MtHoodRescueHope,
To be honest, I don't think this is really the place for this conversation. We are more focused in the specific outcome of this incident and not on general survival skills. Equipped.com which is a survivalist website would likely be the best place for such a discussion. Any discussion here or on any of the climbing websites on such issues will likely be fairly specific to technical mountaineering and not generally applicable for the most part. I appreciate your curiosity and interest, but I think little will be gained here doing more than simply attempting to keep abreast of events as they occur on the mountain.
|
|
JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
|
|
|
Dec 16, 2006 - 09:03pm PT
|
I really felt like today was going to be a happy one.
Hearing they had to turn back was a real bummer.
JDF
|
|
Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
|
|
|
Dec 16, 2006 - 09:08pm PT
|
Hopefully they are hunkered down and waiting out the storm. Hard to say just how likely a rescue/survival outcome is...
the best training for being in terrible mountain conditions I ever got was spending winters climbing in New Hampshire, Vermont and eastern Canada, some nasty winter weather there.
mthoodres...
I don't know the specific answer to the cell phone conversation. Don't know about GPS, but I do know that in these sorts of conditions, it doesn't really matter what type of communication and location gear you have... you know all you need to: the weather is terrible, you can't move, potential rescuers can't move, and you are concentrating on surviving. The smallest place in the world can be infinitely remote in a bad white-out. Fresh snow pack can prevent any safe movement on the mountain. The possibility of rescue should never be assumed, you go up in those places and your best assumption is that you are on you own.
Before a rescue can take place the climbers have to be located. Even then, the rescuers will not put themselves in a known hazardous situation. Avalanche conditions can be a factor.
As for what they did vs. what I'd do, no way to tell what is the right thing to do, depends on the conditions at the time, the equipment on hand, the ability to use that equipment, the health status of the climbers, etc. If everyone's ok, and everyone is ready to wait out the storm, then I too would stick together, dig a snow cave and start brewing tea.
Climbing mountains puts you in situations that are not entirely under your control. That is part of the appeal of climbing, dealing with the unknown.
We all wish for a positive outcome and the safe return of these climbers. To some extent, we climbers all have similar experiences varying in degree to be sure. We know what it is like to be up there, and we wouldn't judge the actions of this team until we know more.
|
|
Wild Bill
climber
Ca
|
|
|
Dec 16, 2006 - 09:09pm PT
|
mthoodrescuehope = LEB?
Same format of "I'm really informed" but "please, you experts, school me for no good reason."
|
|
Bill
climber
San Francisco
|
|
|
Dec 16, 2006 - 09:24pm PT
|
This is close to home - I had a similar experience on Mt Baker a few years ago. We didn't have stove, food, or bivy gear and we survived 5 days - I don't think we would have lasted another night. If these guys have those things they could last a lot longer. I hope they are just holed up safe, waiting for a break in the weather.
I have a pretty good idea of what they are enduring right now - I sure hope they come through ok.
|
|
mthoodrescuehope
Social climber
nyc,ny
|
|
|
Dec 16, 2006 - 09:47pm PT
|
healyje reply,
there was no need to castigate me for my post. your words and attitude towards me leave a very bitter taste in my mouth, with respect to how I may regard the www.supertopo.com community. is everyone's head chopped off when they post here for the first time? i have read many posts on this forum which would use the attention of a moderator, and would have never guess my on topic post would be flamed in such a way -- ever. i'm shocked. that aside..
Ed Hartouni reply,
thank you for a sensible reply to my original inquiry. I have noticed that many here at supertopo.com and other forums have shared similar extreme circumstances when climbing and made it back alive, which seem more commonplace than someone who sees the story on cnn would think -- given the conditions.
let's wait and see.
|
|
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
|
Dec 16, 2006 - 10:09pm PT
|
Your post was not in anyway flamed - I merely suggested that this was, in my opinion, not the place for such a discussion - take that as you will. If your perception is that my post was a 'castigation' or 'flame' then you are a bit thin-skinned to be cruising about online. Again, others here may or may not agree with me, but it's hard to know quite else how to respond when someone requests a general discussion on a set of issues without the requisite technical background to really understand much of the resulting dialog that would likely ensue if folks were so inclined. You might also note this thread wasn't about general survival or mountaineering skills, it has been a dialog about this specific incident. Feel free to start another thread on general techniques and issues, but I would suggest [url="http://www.summitpost.org/" target="new"]SummitPost.org[/url] or the regional climbing/mountaineering for [url="http://www.neclimbs.com/" target="new"]New England[/url] or the [url="http://www.adkforum.com/forumdisplay.php?f=65" target="new"]Adirondaks[/url] - but I would caution you that patience with non-climbers suddenly inundating such forums and doing considerably more posting than reading is wearing quote thin on some of them.
|
|
JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
|
|
|
Dec 16, 2006 - 10:13pm PT
|
Healyje in no way flamed you man?
But I will, Get lost you idiot!
You sound like some stupid reporter.
JDF
|
|
Bill
climber
San Francisco
|
|
|
Dec 16, 2006 - 10:17pm PT
|
Riley - there's no wind in a snow cave, and snow is a good insulator - could keep them warm - well less cold - while blocking the heat sensor.
No it doesn't look good, but maybe not hopeless yet. What nearly killed me and my partner was hypothermia, dehydration, and exhaustion - we were too cold to sleep. With stoves and bags they may make it.
|
|
mthoodrescuehope
Social climber
nyc,ny
|
|
|
Dec 16, 2006 - 10:26pm PT
|
it appears cnn is quick to suggest sar has given up -- really not true..
http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/12/16/missing.climbers/index.html
Mount Hood searchers give up, return to bases
POSTED: 8:18 p.m. EST, December 16, 2006
Story Highlights• NEW: Air search continues after ground search proves fruitless
• NEW: Teams approach summit but find no trace of missing men
• Teams set out before dawn on north, south faces of mountain
• Rescuers were encouraged by break in weather, but it didn't help
from my understanding sar would normally retrace back down the mountain to base, then perhaps re-deploy at a future date/time, if decided to be necessary, correct?
Upon reading the above story, one question came to mind: approximately how long would the the U.S. Forest Service keep Mt Hood closed given the situation? I hope the rescuers make contact with/find atleast one of the lost climbers so that the present search doesn't loose its morale or force.
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Dec 16, 2006 - 10:26pm PT
|
Thanks for the updates, a gripping event.
healyje, juan, that guy in the post above me didn't come off bad? Why so hard him?
He was asking some seriously good questions.
|
|
Landgolier
climber
the flatness
|
|
|
Dec 16, 2006 - 10:38pm PT
|
MtHood,
You have to understand that when these kinds of things are going on, people on this board aren't inclined to analyze what people should or shouldn't have done or criticize their practices. Climbers are a family, and those are our brothers up there; I don't even do alpine and I'm thinking about these guys 10 times a day, and people like Healy have been on that mountain or others like it under conditions where the same thing could have happened, and there's nothing but the will of the gods that has all of us warm and safe and home and them up there. If some tourist was up there or somebody went out without reading the weather reports or having the skill and the gear to deal with things not going exactly as planned, you can bet we'd be all over them because there would be rescuers risking their lives for someone else's foolishness -- there are probably more people on here that are or have been SAR than aren't, and a few of us have even had our own butts saved. We also know that friends and families often read this stuff, even if they don't post, and if it was us up there we wouldn't want our mothers reading some rant about how we shouldn't have split up written by someone sitting comfortably at home in Loma Lardass, CA.
If you really are interested in how climbers evaluate the situation, stop by again in a few weeks. Regardless of how it ends, people on here will learn as much as we can from this situation in hopes of putting the odds a little more in our favor next time we're out there. Hopefully we'll even have the climbers themselves to tell us what happened. If you're interested in how climbers analyze these situations, the American Alpine Club publishes an annual thing called Accidents in North American Mountaineering, detailing every accident and rescue situation they can get information on. It's not online because it wouldn't exist if memberships and purchases didn't support it, but you can find out about it and read examples at http://www.americanalpineclub.org/pages/page/72. There's also a link there to the Canadian version, which is online but is generally not as in-depth.
Right now, though, we pray and we hope, and we stand by our brothers, their loved ones, and the good people who are out there trying to bring them home.
|
|
Ouch!
climber
|
|
|
Dec 16, 2006 - 10:39pm PT
|
On the first day they were reported missing, a news report said the one man has sustained some kind of injury and was the reason he holed up. Apparently, this may have been a false report since the only contact seems to be the one cell phone call to his family.
|
|
golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
|
|
|
Dec 16, 2006 - 10:41pm PT
|
My kids were ski racing at Mt Bachelor today, some 80 miles south of Hood, so I was up there experiencing the weather. I was only at about 7500 feet and it sure was windy. I would imagine that higher up the gusts today would make visibility poor and an ascent miserable. Temperatures are lower as well.
I thought today was the day! Oh well. Best of luck to teh rescuers and te stranded climbers.
|
|
mthoodrescuehope
Social climber
nyc,ny
|
|
|
Dec 16, 2006 - 11:19pm PT
|
landgolier,
thank you for the reply. my intent was to glean whatever I could from individuals like yourself, who, from what I have just learned recently, share many similar experiences as the three lost climbers which cnn reported. yes, i am aware that climbers are tight and that no-one here would purposefully second guess anyone elses actions, with malcontent.
objectivity is really all I was expecting in answering my question or in the dialogue in general; whether or not anyone here has been in the same situation as the three climbers or not, although this does add additional insight.
apparently, i am not the only one commenting or asking questions: hence, we are at 96+ replies to "Rescue on Mt. Hood".. no i am not a reporter fishing for quality "info".
pasted from above post:
Upon reading the above story, one question came to mind: approximately how long would the the U.S. Forest Service keep Mt Hood closed given the situation?
|
|
Landgolier
climber
the flatness
|
|
|
Dec 16, 2006 - 11:41pm PT
|
It's hard to say how long any given search will go on, every SAR operation is going to have some kind of decision rubric but as you can imagine there's a lot of fudge room going into any factor that gets plugged into the equation. That's incredibly nonspecific I know, and others more local to this might be able to tell you more, but it's not anything simple like "we think they could make it X days so we're going to keep up the effort for 1.5*X days" or "operations will continue until a team has passed within 50' of every point in the search area." They will definitely keep the mountain closed for as long a there are search activities going on.
I'm glad to hear they're flying the C-130 24/7 pretty much no matter what, I hope those guys can hear or see that plane.
|
|
Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
|
|
|
Dec 16, 2006 - 11:44pm PT
|
When someone makes it out ok you often don't here about it, though that can be as harrowing as what is going on now on Mt. Hood.
I don't think that anyone, including the SAR and USFS know how long they'll keep the mountain clear. But that they are doing that is an interesting bit of information, meaning, there are people who might still go up and attempt the mountain, which to my mind means that people who know the mountain feel that the conditions might be acceptable. Sounds strange, a team fighting it out to survive while some others think they might make a go for the summit.
It is a waiting game at this point. No use really second guessing the SAR or the climbers or the USFS. Everyone is playing their role. We can only hope that they're alright and that no one gets hurt trying to help out.
|
|
johnboy
Trad climber
Can't get here from there
|
|
|
Dec 17, 2006 - 12:21am PT
|
Mt. Hood
" it appears cnn is quick to suggest sar has given up -- really not true..
http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/12/16/missing.climbers/index.html
Mount Hood searchers give up, return to bases
POSTED: 8:18 p.m. EST, December 16, 2006
Story Highlights• NEW: Air search continues after ground search proves fruitless"
The way I read that is that they are giving up for the day. They'll resume again in the morning. I don't believe they meant total surrender.
|
|
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
|
Dec 17, 2006 - 12:58am PT
|
New teams will be heading up early this morning. They have an open window Sunday and Monday before the next front moves onshore. I'm hoping for the best, but to be honest I take no comfort in the fact they did not emerge from their caves today. Having flown in Chinooks in Vietnam and been around C-130's I can testify they really really put out a thumping, pounding sound that would be heard even in a snow cave. I had hoped those sounds combined with the sunshine on the mountain today would have at least brought them out and waving. Here's to Sunday being the day...
|
|
jstan
climber
|
|
|
Dec 17, 2006 - 01:16am PT
|
I don’t know what IR imaging system is being used but I would be surprised if any signals could be seen under these conditions, other than for people on the surface. (FLIR Systems is headquartered in Portland so it may be one of their InSb systems or perhaps their long-wave uncooled unit.) Indeed I would expect the night flying C-130 is monitoring the summit cone, probably in the 3-5 micron band, just in case someone exits the snow cave. Were I in this situation I would wait until the aircraft was approaching a quartering position ( as the IR system is probably side-looking) and I would hold my coat open to give maximum exposed area in the direction of the plane. Exposure of skin is not necessary as the system senses temperature. If one is large enough to fill a few pixels there will be a whopping signal difference between the target (you) and the surrounding snow. If no one seemed to see me I would modulate my signal by closing my coat and opening it rapidly. The viewer’s brain is very sensitive to 3Hz so I would at least try to get close to that frequency. Try to be regular in your frequency. Too much variation and your signal may appear similar to something called "1/f noise". Low frequency signal/noise is very visible on these imagers. I should know as I spent years fighting 1/f detector noise. Oh yes, also try to climb onto any object that will get you above some of the blowing snow. It scatters the light.
As to imaging a buried target; systems are designed to operate in the 3-5 micron or 8-14 micron spectral windows as limited by atmospheric water absorption bands. IR properties of snow are very dependent upon grain size because of light scattering, particularly for the mid-wave band at 3-5 microns. Fresh snow with high water content would form crystals large enough to cause severe scattering and even refraction so I would think imaging a target buried more than a millimeter or so is problematic.
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!