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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 14, 2016 - 11:00am PT
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^^^Thank you.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Nov 14, 2016 - 11:15am PT
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He'd better get used to the first amendment cuz' it ain't going away
I was and remain a "never Trump" -- at least in my voting. I know the rules, however, and Trump won by those rules. The irony in the statement quoted above exceeds any measurement. The left's policy proposals and rhetoric abhor free speech and freedom of religious exercise.
No one says the "never Trumps" have no right to protest the right of others to vote, but they have no right to riot. They also have no right to prevent others from expressing disapproval of their political position. Meanwhile, where the left holds power, "offensive" speech (i.e. expressing ideas that differ from leftist orthodoxy) faces violence and suppression by force, despite the fact that only offensive speech needs protection.
And heaven forbid (so to speak) that someone wishes to express personal religious beliefs in his or her occupation. Unless the expression toes the politically correct line, the left would fine them out of existence.
I realize much of the current anti-Trumpism merely carries out the various stages of grief (currently mostly either anger or bargaining), but the hysteria I hear makes the nominal adults expressing that hysteria seem like spoiled children. The left dosen't realize that it got suckered into believing its own propaganda. If they really appreciated free speech and diversity of thought, they would have seen it.
John
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atchafalaya
Boulder climber
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Nov 14, 2016 - 11:51am PT
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"Interesting how madbolter got all butt hurt that some might be unhappy with the election and now is an expert on the Constitution and 1st Amendment (just to be clear, he's not)."
Ron A or Gnome has a better understanding of the constitution than MB1.
Our democracy is gasoline and Trump is the match.
Juan De Fuca.
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Fossil climber
Trad climber
Atlin, B. C.
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Nov 14, 2016 - 11:55am PT
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John -
I think you are stereotyping people on the left as badly as some on the left stereotype those on the right. There are some of us out here who identify as left who can see value in platform statements from either party, however unlikely it is that they will actually be acted on, and who are disappointed and disgusted but by no means hysterical. And I think that violence and suppression is more likely to come from the right than from the left. I was dreading the chaos that might have resulted if Hillary won. IMHO. And I'm distressed by the upsurge of racist violence that has occurred since the election.
But either way, Trump is the most disgusting person - by his own words and actions - ever to become President of the US, and is variously scaring much of the world and making a laughing stock of US politics.
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Nov 14, 2016 - 12:19pm PT
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John, the problem with giving businesses the freedom to refuse service to anyone is a majorly slippery slope. If you choose to open a business in this country, then you must accept the common values instituted as law in this country. I don't have the right to shoot my neighbor because I feel like it, because that encroaches on his right to live. All of these Libertarian freedom arguments boil down to selfish disregard for living as part of a community and figuring out how to get along with each other. Folks who want that level of freedom to disregard the responsibilities toward society should try to make their existence apart from the benefits of society (including all technology and everything learned in school and the existence of money to enable more than material goods trading between two parties who each are able to produce things that the other wants).
I had a history professor who was hispanic... and by the way I had to hitch-hike to a community college to take that and other classes when I was still in high school, because otherwise I wouldn't be able to apply for and be accepted to the University of California system, because I was unfortunate (from the perspective of my education) to be raised in rural America with little appreciation for intelligence or the value of education in raising one's station in life- but I digress....
Anyways, this hispanic guy shared his personal story traveling through Texas. He is filling up at a gas station in the middle of nowhere (what were his alternatives if this business decided to refuse him service?), and the owner comes out with "HEY BOY, YOU SPILLED OIL ON MY CONCRETE, CLEAN IT UP!" The professor had not made a mess, the ground was oil stained as any gas station is from many cars... but this was Texas, and the professor was alone, and so the professor did his best to clean up what he could. Fear is a powerful thing, and it is myopic and willful ignorance that tries to deny the damage happening in our country that has been encouraged by the campaign tactics of Trump, which did in fact help him win because it resonates with many people.
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rbord
Boulder climber
atlanta
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Nov 14, 2016 - 12:36pm PT
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I'm sure you've seen the video of Trump meeting a 10 year old girl, and then turning to the camera to say "I'm gonna be dating her in 10 years, can you believe it?"
A ten year old girl.
Not his daughter, however repugnant that is, who maybe he has some kind of familial understanding with, a history with, an understanding of his psyche - this is just a 10 year old stranger girl going up the escalator.
Where does his mind go when he meets a ten year old girl - what is he thinking about as he looks at a ten year old girl?
In the context of "I don't even wait," and "grab them by the pu$$y," and "I get away with stuff like that" about walking in on naked underage girls because he runs the miss teen USA pageant.
And what does he say about her, and how does that affect her, and you, and me, and our society?
A ten year old girl.
And now he's our president.
Who the white alt-right literally prayed for, while insulting our first black president with "Obama is a little girl who soiled his panties", and bringing their own little black girl home to live in a town with 0% blacks.
It is what it is. This is what is now.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Nov 14, 2016 - 12:46pm PT
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But either way, Trump is the most disgusting person - by his own words and actions - ever to become President of the US, and is variously scaring much of the world and making a laughing stock of US politics.
On that we agree, Wayne. And I plead guilty to stereotyping. I should have said "many" or used a similar qualifier. My fault and my bad.
Nut Again, I agree generally on the need to prevent illegal discrimination in public accommodations, but whenever a business involves artistic or intellectual expression, I think the balance rests in the other direction. We don't require lawyers to take cases in which they have an objection of conscience. Why should we require an artist, say, to create something celebrating an event the artist believes to be wrong? That's the distinction people miss, particularly Avakian's actions in the Oregon cake decorating case.
Meanwhile, I'm personally lost in determining what actually constitutes "Trumpism." His supporters range from thoughtful intellectuals to disgusting bigots, which is usually true of every other candidate of major parties. (See, Wayne, I'm trying to reform by using "usually!") His own policy positions are so self-contradictory about all I know is that I don't know.
John
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Banquo
climber
Amerricka
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Nov 14, 2016 - 12:47pm PT
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I testify in courts for a living. The courts have a good system for controlling unfounded opinions. Most witnesses can only testify about facts; what they saw, where they were, what they spent, what time it was, ect. Expert witnesses are permitted to express opinions if they meet two criteria. First, they must they must present their qualifications to the court and be excepted as an expert in the field. Second, they must be able to provide the basis for any opinion. The basis must be scientifically sound.
People who express opinions on internet forums are generally not experts in the field about which they opine and almost never provide an acceptable or even any basis for their opinion. Some are experts and we should listen to them.
I think it is generally best to not express an opinion unless asked for one. Mostly nobody asks for my opinion or anybody else's on an internet forum. I ignore pretty much all opinions here unless I know the person is qualified. We do not need any more unfounded opinions so we should try to restrain our unfounded leaps to conclusions.
As for the election, it took me by surprise and I found the result confusing. So, I looked to the best expert that I know of concerning the choices people make. Daniel Kahneman is a noble Prize winning psychologist notable for his work on the psychology of judgment and decision-making. A lot of his work has to do with the poor decisions that we all make. His book, Thinking, Fast and Slow, is a long and detailed presentation of his work. I suggest you read it. His research has found that people make poor decisions for many reasons such as laziness, bias, etc. To avoid poor decisions simply takes more effort at thought and in knowledge gathering than most people are willing to invest.
Kahneman discusses his opinions about several topics including Brexit and Trump in the article below. Listen to him, he knows more about this than anybody.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/06/05/british-voters-succumbing-to-impulse-irritation-and-anger---and/
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 14, 2016 - 12:49pm PT
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The left's policy proposals and rhetoric abhor free speech and freedom of religious exercise.
The batshit crazy left and right don't like free speech. The centrists - some a little right, some a little left - think free speech is a good thing.
All of these Libertarian freedom arguments boil down to selfish disregard for living as part of a community and figuring out how to get along with each other. Folks who want that level of freedom to disregard the responsibilities toward society should try to make their existence apart from the benefits of society (including all technology and everything learned in school and the existence of money to enable more than material goods trading between two parties who each are able to produce things that the other wants).
There is a group of Liberatrians that do this. They want liberty without responsibility. Doesn't work that way. There is a group of Libertarians that whine about taxes and government and in the next sentence will complain about goverment messing around with their Medicare and Social Security.
The equation goes like this
Liberty + Responsibility = Freedom.
Liberty - Responsibility = Undeserved License
Keep in mind that there is a big range among people who identify as libertarians.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Nov 14, 2016 - 01:08pm PT
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^^^^
Thanks, Mark. Your qualification greatly improves my previous statements.
John
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Norton
Social climber
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Nov 14, 2016 - 01:19pm PT
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Oh now, Trump is not so bad
at least he would give private motels and restaurants the power to deny service to Escopeta
because the owner may not like his haircut, or that he is white, or his boots
because.....Gary Johnson's Libertarian Party believes private business can deny service to anyone, for any reason, any time
they would do away with the Civil Rights Act, go ahead read on their wiki page
"Libertarian" sounds good, doesn't it?
children and puppies like Liberty too, but then they aren't adults
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rbord
Boulder climber
atlanta
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Nov 14, 2016 - 01:24pm PT
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Thanks banquo.
IMHO, the problem with the opinion of the world's most influential psychologist is that it doesn't have much influence.
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whoops
climber
paradise, ca
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Nov 14, 2016 - 01:31pm PT
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"They also have no right to prevent others from expressing disapproval of their political position. Meanwhile, where the left holds power, "offensive" speech (i.e. expressing ideas that differ from leftist orthodoxy) faces violence and suppression by force, despite the fact that only offensive speech needs protection."
I disagree to some extent with this statement but, It's amazing how much you can learn when there is civil discussion.
I'm going to make a somewhat blanket statement. I'm open to other viewpoints.....
As a progressive who is white, privileged, straight, educated, I believe I am fighting for the equality of others in this country. This was the guiding force for me in the revolution that happened in the sixties. We are fighting for gay rights, woman's rights, immigrant rights and everyone's rights that fall under the "all men are created equal" bit of the preamble. Conservatives are interested in their and their tribes rights. As in, their religious or their individual rights without assessing them in the context of "everyone's rights". There is a least one study that shows conservatives think self, family, tribe while liberals think bigger picture.
As a side note, conservative opposition to abortion doesn't follow this pattern and isn't part of my discussion.
Brad
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SC seagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, Moab, A sailboat, or some time zone
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Nov 14, 2016 - 01:38pm PT
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I love these "libertarian" businesses that feel they have the right to refuse service based on their "religious" belief.
In the meantime they flush their toilets into public sewer systems, customers come to them via public roads, power companies and municipal water is provided at low cost, police and fire protect them. Garbage is collected. I guess if a gay fire fighter came to save their business they'd say, "oh, no, let it burn down?"
When was the last time an evangelical church built a sewer?
Susan
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c wilmot
climber
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Nov 14, 2016 - 01:47pm PT
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So Curves gyms should be forced to accept men?
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SC seagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, Moab, A sailboat, or some time zone
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Nov 14, 2016 - 01:55pm PT
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Curves gyms
Those two words don't belong in the same sentence.
Susan
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 14, 2016 - 02:16pm PT
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^^^Thanks!
We are fighting for gay rights, woman's rights, immigrant rights and everyone's rights that fall under the "all men are created equal" bit of the preamble. Conservatives are interested in their and their tribes rights.
That's the juice! Egalite', Liberte', Fraternite'!
I love these "libertarian" businesses that feel they have the right to refuse service based on their "religious" belief.
Unequal allowance for the exercise of individual liberty free of physical harm is not libertarianism!
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TWP
Trad climber
Mancos, CO & Bend, OR
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Nov 14, 2016 - 02:20pm PT
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"Sure we'll have fascism in America, but it'll come disguised as 100 percent Americanism."
So Sayeth Huey Long, circa 1935
"When fascism comes to America, we won't call it fascism; we'll call it Trumpism."
TWP, today.
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