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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Woody wrote
"If we'd just stayed long enough to kick his ass out during the Gulf War then gone home, we wouldn't be in Iraq now."
Actually, the same think would have happened then as happened now. The Bush 1 team even knew about it and wrote about it. Read their reasons for not continuing to Bagdad and you'll read about what's happening now.
Peace
Karl
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dirtbag
climber
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To add to your point, Karl....back in '91 there were also a few hundred thousand more troops on the ground and a much more diverse fighting force representing several Arab countries, too. If there was a "good" time to do it, 91 was it. But as you said, Bush I realized (correctly) it still would have been a folly.
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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"edit: Largo, We just didn't send in enough troops and were not ruthless enough in terminating Al-Sadr and others. Violated the Powell doctrine. My buddy McCain keeps calling for more troops."
I'm thinking that more troops would only allow us to do our version of ethnic cleansing. "Terminating" even more people, then more still, with an overwhelming force, is pretty much what Hitler did, no? I'm not looking at the rationalizations about why it is just in our case and not with Adolph--who was legitamately insane--but I just don't know where this would lead other than where we are right now. And what do you do--just kill everyone who doesn't agree with us? Seems primitive. It also (IMO) seems based on a myth that it really would work, which I doubt. You just can't go slaughtering tons of folks and not have a backlash.
JL
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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You're right Fatty. Nothing says "we are a country of peace, justice, equality and goodness" like a brutal, ruthless occupation. The reaction of the people in Iraq is obviously due to a LACK of suffering and death.
Mr. Long- Most people who support more troops aren't looking to do any cleasning, but instead suppress violence for long enough for the government to stabilize and the Iraqi security forces to be trained and take over themselves. Unfortunately, even if that DID work, it doesn't change the fact that the Iraqi security forces are plagued with sectarian death squad members. We may well simply be establishing a smoke screen for the Shiite majority to train its own Republican Guard.
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bachar
Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Just how many civilians have died in Iraq? I've seen figures that go between 35,000 and 500,000.... seems like quite a spread. I know the US military doesn't do body counts - which are reliable sources on this?
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Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
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John writes:
"Just how many civilians have died in Iraq? I've seen figures that go between 35,000 and 500,000.... "
Good question.
Another question: How many of these folks were killed by Americans? And how many were killed by people who aren't Americans?
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bachar
Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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I've read that they still are debating on how many civilians were actually killed in the Vietnam War...estimates range between one and two million...another large spread.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Yes Fatty. Which is exactly why our currently "security" strategy is a farce. If 20 of us right here right now all decided to in the next 24 hours do as much harm as possible we could clearly do a LOT of damage. That is the risk of living in a free society. By living freely we risk dying freely.
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Tony C
Trad climber
SLC, UT
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Sounds like a whole lot of folks feel pretty strongly about things they know very little about.
On The Pro War Crowd:
Pro-war folks are pretty hard to find. I can count the number I have met in 40 years of livin' on one hand... and none of them have ever actually been in one. So I don't count their opinion for much. Seems like folks talkin' about a "Pro War Crowd" are talkin' about themselves and the way they see the world more than they are anyone else.
On Being Wrong:
I have never met anyone who was wrong. And I've met some pretty unsavory characters.
On Civilian Casualties:
When a guy plans on killing a bunch of kids in Iraq with a homemade bomb and accidentally kills himself while constructing it in his home... his death is tallied as a "civilian casualty of the war" on three lists that I know about. "But that rarely/never happens", you might say. It happened 6 times in my area of operations last year.
On Errant Bomb-dropping:
I made the final decision on bomb-dropping/missile firing in my AO 87 times last year. I gave the "go-ahead" one time. There was a total of one untargeted death as a result. Turns out that guy was even worse than the one we were trying to stop. He was already convicted of murdering 17 Iraqis and 1 American Soldier in an Iraqi court. He escaped and was helping the targeted man kill more people. The Army hasn't bothered keeping track of how many lives we are saving in Iraq either. We have more important things to attend to.
Tony Calderone
Major, US Army Special Forces
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Interesting stuff, Tony. I kinda had a feeling that was the case with "civilian" casualty numbers.
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Hi, Tony:
I don't know much about this at all but I feel this might be true: trying to "win" this war through exercising superior force, like a hammer on a nail, seems like an unwinnable strategy and one certain to foster even more enemies in the Arab world. Securing the place seems very risky to the American servicemen (and women) actually over there. Is securing the land even possible, with so much infighting within the various factions. How would you stabalize the area, and who in Iraq would lead the reconciliation between the factions? Or does the country splinter into parts like the old Yugoslavia?
This sounds like a mess. What do the ranking military officers think will actually work? What do they say to do? Because they are muzzled or threatened with getting sacked if they speak out, most of us have no idea what the in-crowd thinks about any of this. All we get is spin or diatribes from the right or left.
JL
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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I share John and John's concern with having more hard facts. I have grave misgivings about what has happened in Iraq in the last four (40? 400?) years. It's important to be well informed and understand what has happened, and evaluate the options, before deciding on the best course. No way to unmake the past, but there may be some choices for the future. Even if it's between bad or worse, it's a choice.
The present U.S. administration has gotten itself into a quagmire, not just in Iraq, due largely to its attitude "Our minds are made up, don't confuse us with the facts." The alternative doesn't have to involve paralysis by analysis.
Anecdotes and opinions are helpful, facts and perspective even more.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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MH wrote: Anecdotes and opinions are helpful, facts and perspective even more.
By the current Baker Report...the facts are we have created a very grave situation in Iraq.
Fact...Almost 3,000 of our troops...dead.
Fact...anywhere from 50 to 300,000 Iraq's...dead.
Fact...Iraq did not have have WMD.
Fact...Iraq WAS NOT a component of 9/11
Tony wrote: Sounds like a whole lot of folks feel pretty strongly about things they know very little about.
You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows!
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WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
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Winds are known to change direction quite often.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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"If we'd just stayed long enough to kick his ass out during the Gulf War then gone home, we wouldn't be in Iraq now."
Playing Devil's advocate here, it might have eliminated the possibilty of Bush II's protracted political puppet presence, which alone might have saved enough lives, and $, and planetary resources to have made it worthwhile.
But who knows?
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jstan
climber
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From today's NYT. Quite succinct.
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[No matter what positions they take today, all Republicans would prefer that the 2008 elections not be fought on the battleground of Iraq, said Douglas Foyle, professor of government at Wesleyan University.
“They don’t want the 2008 presidential and Congressional campaign to be about staying the course,” Professor Foyle said. “That’s where the calculus of Bush and the Republicans diverge very quickly. Everyone is thinking about the next election, and Bush doesn’t have one.”]
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If that is the environment, I would think Congressional republicans will not be loath to show the divergence by voting for a discovery process. Why are we there? Will be interesting to see how it plays out.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Tony- I appreciate your perspective, but you should know as well as anyone that your personal experience with "errant bomb dropping" has not been the uniform experience throughout the last several years. If the intent of your post was to share a personal experience then thanks, but if it was to anectdotally dismiss our collective concern for "collateral" damage based on your one experience then...
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Accidents may be dismissed in a justified war Fatty.
If you have no cause to invade, every innocent death is another crime.
That doesn't mean the soldiers are individuals criminals. The crime is with the folks who conspire to war for oil and power.
Peace
Karl
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Thanks fatty for presenting todays ethical conundrum. If you can expect an accident to happen, then does it really make it an accident?
Of course if you're The Fatty there are no ethical conundrums. The world is crystal clear and easy to call...
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Fatty--
I'd like to know your perspectives on the limitations of force.
JL
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