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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Jul 12, 2016 - 05:19pm PT
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I agree, Tom, that free climbing may not be the best ethical approach if it requires altering a route that was - and will continue to be - climbed in a different style without the additional fixed hardware. The bolts on the Dihedral Wall always bothered me for that reason. Similarly, an aid and big wall trade route like Zodiac should remain as is, absent some compelling reason to change (which I don't see here).
My point was simply that not all retrobolting represents a "dumbing down" (or chickening out) of a route.
John
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thebravecowboy
climber
The Good Places
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Jul 12, 2016 - 06:57pm PT
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apparently you folks don't know Rifle
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Jul 12, 2016 - 07:04pm PT
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not all retrobolting
So qualified, it's hard to go wrong with such a statement. However, there is a slow trend toward dumbing down.
But this thread has been useful to me. I have come to realize that I really don't care as much as I once did, even recently.
I'll do what I do, and I'll talk honestly about it if anybody asks or cares. Beyond that, I really don't care what game others are playing or how they describe or name their game.
I don't own any of my routes, and if somebody comes along and "converts" them in some way, I don't really care. I was seeking the experiences I already got, and those can't be "converted" into something else.
I guess that I am coming to extend that basic perspective to what "climbing" is in general. So, this entire discussion feels less important to me than it did even a few days ago.
Maybe the deal is that the climbing community as a whole "owns" the routes, and "we" want high-standard (bold, risky testpieces) to remain unsullied by the "accessibility" trend. But I just don't feel the personal investment in "resisting" that I even recently did.
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Kalimon
Social climber
Ridgway, CO
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Jul 12, 2016 - 08:50pm PT
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Ludicrous conjecture GDavis . . . I don't see anyone stick clipping up routes around here.
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Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
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Jul 12, 2016 - 09:49pm PT
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It doesn't matter if you don't brag or talk about what you climbed...
... not caring about others' opinions takes some backbone..
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RyanD
climber
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Jul 12, 2016 - 10:12pm PT
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I've used one a few times sportclimbing on a project while getting a belay and many times by myself to get the rope up a climb with my GRIGRI which actually works quite well in some situations.
A good friend Ive climbed with since the beginning is a little sport ninja, when I belay him On one of his projects I just sit down and drool and feed out rope, he goes up with his stick and puts draws on and does stuff. It's exactly like belaying an aid route, I don't even know what he's doing. Then he comes down and I go have a flail on something. Then he goes up again with all the info from the stick sesh and sends.
My thoughts on stick clips is that they seems to work pretty good if u want to send routes at your limit and not waste a bunch of yours and your buddies time punting old school and being trad or whatever.
Now I know it's fun to be trad at the sport crag sometimes, but it's kinda like listening to 50's records or watching Betamax porn when you have the Internet.
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Flip Flop
climber
Earth Planet, Universe
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Jul 12, 2016 - 10:18pm PT
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There must be rules and the rules must be adhered to because the Germans are coming!
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jul 12, 2016 - 10:34pm PT
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That's what some people want/enjoy/specialize in. It's not better or worse in general, it's just a different type of climbing.
Except it's entirely dependent on people drilling bolts for them. It wouldn't be a problem except for the boredom factor leads to an insatiable demand for new routes and that means bolting more rock. And if there are trad crags / routes in the close proximity then those are constantly eyed with quiet or not so quiet envy and public conjecture about "what right..." and traffic-related questions like "how many people ever lead such and such a route each year [because it's not 'safe' ]? ".
These days there's continual and ongoing pressure on unbolted lines close to metro areas.
Sure, it's all just climbing - until it's another form of consumption.
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couchmaster
climber
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Jul 13, 2016 - 05:50am PT
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Chicken! Haha, good stuff Cosmic. Where's yer stick clip though?
Hooks are aid too?
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spectreman
Trad climber
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Jul 13, 2016 - 06:49am PT
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I watched a pretty well known climber stick clip his way up a famous Tommy Caldwell route. It was his first time on that climb and he worked on moves and sequences that day. I later read that he sent the route after about a month of projecting for the 5th or 6th ascent.
Not many people climbing at the 14c level. So what that he worked on it with a stick clip for his first look.
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couchmaster
climber
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Jul 13, 2016 - 08:34am PT
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You can't be that chicken Cosmik as yer still leading using those sh#t original Gen 1 Chouinard cable Camalots. They were state of the art when Shep was a Pup, but the skinny and hard metal of the cams along with the angle is not conducive to keeping yer ass off the deck. Might consider replacing those with some newer cams from about any mfg or keep that stick clip close by.
This one sparked that diatribe:-) Quote: "With my injured body I can't afford to fall"
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overwatch
climber
Arizona
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Jul 13, 2016 - 08:37am PT
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ha! rack dis
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Jul 13, 2016 - 08:40am PT
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Yeah, Cosmic, you need a rack like Steve's here:
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Coach37
Social climber
Philly
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Jul 13, 2016 - 08:49am PT
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I'm not exactly a young fellow, but from reading this site and this thread, I have to wonder if half of you have ever been sport climbing at your limit or been climbing at all in the last 25 years?
Redpointing is about efficiency. Learn the moves with the least energy, and least impact on your skin, in the shortest amount of time. I get the sense that when many of you go "sport climbing" you are basically going out climbing routes that you can onsight or might hang on once. Projecting is a completely different animal.
Yes, I can go up there on lead on my first working burn, and take a bunch of falls figuring out the sequences. The problem with that approach is that sometimes you can't always figure out all the sequences in the first (or even fifth) session on something that is truly at your limit. And throwing and thrutching for blind holds is hard on skin.
Another point is that when working the route, once I've "solved" a section, I will routinely hang there and try every other thing I can imagine might work there. Half the time I come up with an easier sequence after I've already found the most obvious way. You aren't likely to keep trying every sequence if you're looking at falls everytime and having to reclimb back up to the sequence. But when I can hang there and feel different holds, experiment with body positioning; it makes my projecting time more productive and efficient.
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cuvvy
Sport climber
arkansas
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Jul 13, 2016 - 09:53am PT
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Everybody has their style or lack there of.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jul 13, 2016 - 10:42am PT
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Those 1st gen double cable Camalots have saved my ass more than once, Couch.
Couch beat me to it. Those things blow and by that I mean blow-up. Swore off chouinard/bd cams forever after one blew on me. Check the area around the ends of the cables for cracks:
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=101473&tn=0
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Jul 13, 2016 - 11:05am PT
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I'm not exactly a young fellow, but from reading this site and this thread, I have to wonder if half of you have ever been sport climbing at your limit or been climbing at all in the last 25 years?
Redpointing is about efficiency. Now we're getting into the ad hominem territory. I suppose your point is that, unless you personally don't use a stick clip, you aren't entitled to an opinion. I mean, why would someone who climbs--even if they haven't sent anything hard in a while--have an opinion of how someone climbs?
What you're describing is not redpointing, it's working on your redpoint. I agree that a redpoint burn is about efficiency, but it's efficiency learned from earlier attempts. Unless you're weighting the rope after stick clipping a piece above your head, I don't see how stick clipping helps you to better wire the moves or is more "efficient", unless the problem is all in your heads or your sack, which is, I believe, what many on this thread are suggesting. Groveling uses less energy than showing some backbone, but that doesn't mean I want to stoop to that level.
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RyanD
climber
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Jul 13, 2016 - 11:22am PT
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Coach is in ad hominem territory now??
This is the beauty of ST.
One of the most accomplished all around climbers to post here offers up solid advice and opinion relevant to modern standards and climbing techniques- based on real experience- and gets accused of ad hominem because his logic is not understood or agreed with.
I think hand Jammie's are the bigger issue we should be discussing, or the dangers of the satanic GRGRIIII!!!!!!!!!!
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Jul 13, 2016 - 11:42am PT
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as yer still leading using those sh#t original Gen 1 Chouinard cable Camalots.
I'm with Cosmic on this one -- both in still using the antiques (Not only first generation Chouinard Camalots. I was forced [by personal parsimony] to use a first generation Chouinard No. 5 Hexcentric purchased in 1972 on an aid practice route recently), and in checking everything on the rack before I leave the car.
John
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