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mrtropy
Trad climber
Nor Cal
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Mar 29, 2016 - 08:13pm PT
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I never cheated on my wife, but Trump has ... why is he better than me? Why do the trailer park trash worship him like a god. the one time I prayed god said he would wend trump p to hell is that true?
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Mar 29, 2016 - 08:15pm PT
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I find it impossible to believe that a supposedly omnipotent, omniscient & omnipresent being that is touted to be loving and forgiving would allow the myriad of tragedies and injustices to occur, particularly to the children and truly loving inhabitants of this planet. If there is such a being, then it is cruelly sadistic and unworthy of our worship.
This argument has never held water with me. Let us assume that the bible is correct and you do live forever.. that all who died that you loved may just be waiting behind the veil.. that what you lost and the pain you felt is just a blink in eternity. Neither may we after a few millenia.
A god who sees all who lived and always will live after death would not consider our limited experience of death from just one side to be all that big a deal.
....Just playing Jesus advocate here.
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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Mar 29, 2016 - 08:23pm PT
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Was Jesus a progressive socialist or a communist?
did he not preach against the right wing establishment?
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limpingcrab
Trad climber
the middle of CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 29, 2016 - 08:39pm PT
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Are you a Christian Apologist? I've never really thought about that definition, but I do think people should be able to explain and defend their beliefs (1 Peter 3:15). It's mostly me asking myself these questions and then looking for answers.
I'm fine with someone taking all of the Bible literally
So... you're cool with people being stoned to death for working on the sabbath, disrespecting their parents etc., etc.? The whole Bible, not select verses from the Old Testament.
I don't mean to sound like a hard ass, nor do I wish to be argumentative with you, but Galatians 6 is not about adding to or taking away from the "bible". It is about not changing the story of Jesus. I think the Bible is the story of Jesus, from beginning to end. Maybe that's where we're having trouble reconciling ideas.
Again, Jesus said he had more to say to us. This is the part that I am referring to. The modern church seems to ignore this when it tries to say that the bible is the only word of God and one shouldn't add to it. Jesus wanted to add to it, but we weren't ready. Men created the bible. They chose what would go in it and what wouldn't. And it was contentious at the time. They were doing something noble in attempting to bring together a very large group of inspired teachings to make it possible for the masses to study. But the modern church has perverted that effort by teaching that it now is the only word of God, when it was never meant to be that.
So again I ask. When will people be ready? Has no one on this planet put on the Christ mind since Jesus" death? If they have, then could not Jesus expound to them more teachings? I believe that, just as God had his hand in the message of the Bible, he also had his hand in what went into the book itself. I believe 2 Timothy 3:16 and also think that everything we need is in there. God speaks to people who seek him in prayer, but it's not an addition to what's in the Bible. Of course I believe Jesus will return, but I'm not sure what you're referring to when you say that he "wanted to add to it?"
I find it impossible to believe that a supposedly omnipotent, omniscient & omnipresent being that is touted to be loving and forgiving would allow the myriad of tragedies and injustices to occur, particularly to the children and truly loving inhabitants of this planet. If there is such a being, then it is cruelly sadistic and unworthy of our worship.
That we have consciousness is a product of millenia of evolutionary changes beginning with random chemical reactions, gradually increasing in complexity to ensure survival in changing environments. We have invented the concept of god as a salve to keep from going insane trying to figure out what it all means. Along the way people have figured out deities are a very convenient way to control the masses while amassing power & fortunes. In short, I believe your first point to be answered by Romans 8:18. With an eternal perspective it doesn't seem so extreme for a sinful world to have some hard times. Especially when God offers a free way out, accepting grace and love.
I've spent my life studying your second point, and I still don't see it as possible. I do believe faith in Jesus is great for mental health so we've got a chicken/egg issue there. The bible told us this would happen though, that everyone is born with an inherent knowledge that there is something bigger (Romans 1:20).
"The fact that so many people identify themselves by their religious beliefs is a major reason the world is so f*#ked up."...
Religion is way more of a problem...
than an answer... Hey, you guys have something in common with Jesus! He couldn't stand religious people either (Matthew 23 and a bunch of other places)
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limpingcrab
Trad climber
the middle of CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 29, 2016 - 08:53pm PT
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Immaculate conception
and resurrection.
How does one
reconcile with
such intellectual
dishonesty? I believe it fits perfectly with the whole story of God and humanity so I don't see a big problem.
I never cheated on my wife, but Trump has ... why is he better than me? Why do the trailer park trash worship him like a god. the one time I prayed god said he would wend trump p to hell is that true? I'm confused
Was Jesus a progressive socialist or a communist?
did he not preach against the right wing establishment? I believe Jesus taught that the church and individuals were supposed to care for everyone, including the poor (dozens of verses like 1st Timothy 5:3). But I also believe that Jesus taught that the government and individuals have different roles (end of Romans 12 talks about the church forgiving while the beginning of 13 talks about the government punishing). The only reason the government would need to get involved is because of the failure of the church to take care of those in need. Not to get political (and outside of the scope of this thread) but I think if people want to help people then they should, rather than making it a law for others to (my parents have paid the rent for three families and health insurance for two, in addition to donating a lot of their teacher wages, even though they're right wing nut-jobs who don't want higher taxes :)
If everyone lived as Jesus taught there would be no needy people. But poor in spirit is much more sad than poor in possessions.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Mar 29, 2016 - 09:45pm PT
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And poor in pocket is poor in spirit. Universally.
lol
money has nothing to do with good spirit. one can be rich if either broke or wealthy. or conversly one can be totally poor in the same financial conditions.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Mar 29, 2016 - 09:52pm PT
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Moose once again nails the meat of the issue.. hell? really.. well f*#k you god. I aint perfect never will be.. never pretended to be.. well except a few times and nobody bought it anyway..
I want the best for everyone..i'll try to do the best from time to time.. sometimes I promise you..I will be a complete piece of sh#t..not becuse I want to be that way.. but because I am.
If you want to send me to hell for it..
f*#k you .. off I go. According to you you made me this way f*#ktard god who makes my bullshit bad actions seem like pure saintlyness compared to your eternal fire sadistic ass.
No god that is worse than me is worthy of my admiration..
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Curt
climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
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Mar 29, 2016 - 09:52pm PT
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I think the Bible is the story of Jesus, from beginning to end...
What do you think of the embellishments added in the Bible to the historical life of Jesus, long after he was dead? Are you OK with that too--as being the "story" of Jesus?
Curt
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limpingcrab
Trad climber
the middle of CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 29, 2016 - 10:33pm PT
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Robert Heinlein's question:
"A long and wicked life followed by five minutes of perfect grace gets you into Heaven. An equally long life of decent living and good works followed by one outburst of taking the name of the Lord in vain—then have a heart attack at that moment and be damned for eternity. Is that the system?"
Moose I believe that God values accepting his grace and loving him more than simply being a decent person for a long time (Luke 15, parables of the lost sheep, lost coin, and prodigal son). Although the result of a relationship with Jesus should be doing good (book of James). I also believe that the "unforgivable sin" (Mark 3:22-30) is generally misunderstood. Simply saying a curse with God's name or thinking something bad about the Holy Spirit etc... is not the point when taken in context. A better translation of "blaspheming the Holy Spirit" is continually rejecting the Holy Spirit, which is what turns your heart towards Jesus. Basically, knowing about and rejecting Jesus leads to hell.
Moose once again nails the meat of the issue.. hell? really.. well f*#k you god. I aint perfect never will be.. never pretended to be.. well except a few times and nobody bought it anyway..
I believe God does not desire perfection, but instead love and acceptance of grace (1st Timothy 2:4)
What do you think of the embellishments added in the Bible to the historical life of Jesus, long after he was dead? Are you OK with that too--as being the "story" of Jesus? I'm not sure what you're referring to. I believe the four Gospels to be the literal truth of the life of Jesus, who historians at least admit existed. He came and died so that we can be free from our sins and have a relationship with God. That was nice of him!
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Mar 30, 2016 - 01:03am PT
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Robert Heinlein's question:
"A long and wicked life followed by five minutes of perfect grace gets you into Heaven. An equally long life of decent living and good works followed by one outburst of taking the name of the Lord in vain—then have a heart attack at that moment and be damned for eternity. Is that the system?"
I am afraid that was the easy system but the new reality is that now God will be asking those who knew you in life their opinion of what kind of person you were. Too many replies that "so and so was a selfish as#@&%e" and yer doomed.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Mar 30, 2016 - 01:32am PT
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Lahore, Pakistan (CNN)For so many, it was supposed to be a pleasant day out; among the Christian visitors, a fun way to celebrate Easter Sunday. But a day in the park turned into tragedy for the families of the 72 lives brutally cut short in Lahore's Gulshan-e-Iqbal Park last weekend.
Seventeen of those killed were minors, Haider Ashraf, the deputy inspector general of police for the Pakistani city, told CNN. Almost 400 others were wounded.
Naveed Ashraf with his new bride, Shawana. This image has been edited at the request of the victims' family to protect her privacy.
Naveed Ashraf with his new bride, Shawana. This image has been edited at the request of the victims' family to protect her privacy.
Jamat-ul-Ahrar, the group that claimed responsibility, said it was specifically targeting Christians on the holy day, and has vowed more such attacks.
The attack came at a poignant time for the country's Christian minority, some of whom were in the city's Gulshan-e-Iqbal Park to celebrate Easter on Sunday evening.
But not all the victims were Christians -- the simple fact is that families from across the city come to use this park, and the majority of the victims in Sunday's horrific attack were Muslim.
pakistan blast folo mohsin walk and talk cnn_00015027.jpg
Pakistan bombing: Victims buried; suspects detained 01:58
Near a makeshift memorial in the park, a sign, stark white capital letters on a black background, proclaimed what so many in this city think: "Terrorism has no religion."
Among the victims: a young Muslim couple, married just four months.
Young lives lost in Lahore blast
Overtaken by grief
Naveed Ashraf's mother was beside herself with loss. Her son has married just months before, and the newlyweds -- both Muslim -- were visiting the park with two of Naveed's sisters.
"I entrusted them in God's hands, now they are with God," she said.
It was the first time his new wife, Shawana, had visited the popular sport in Lahore, one of Pakistan's most moderate, cosmopolitan cities.
They both died in the bombing, suffering shrapnel wounds to the head and neck that poured blood, soaking their clothes, hair and faces.
They were buried as soon as possible under Muslim law -- first thing Monday morning. One of Naveed's sisters was also injured in the bombing -- a shrapnel wound in her leg.
"Everyone who saw (Shawana) said 'she looks like an angel,''' Naveed's mother told CNN. "Well, God made an angel come and take my son away."
Pakistan mourns Easter bombing victims
Pakistan mourns Easter bombing victims 01:56
Who are the Pakistan Taliban?
Moment of innocence before tragedy strikes
Moments before the attack, video taken of the Ashraf family. They were sitting having snacks close to a food stand when the bombers struck.
In the aftermath, the family searched for them at the park. They found them, broken and bloodied, at the city's Sheikh Zayed Hospital. On the way there they had helped other victims, one family in a stream of volunteers loading the injured into cars, on to motorbikes, anything that could carry them.
The sisters were covered in cloth lying side by side. One had been helped there by strangers, two men that carried her listless body -- men she now calls "brothers."
Despite her own injuries, her sister had searched for help to get her brother to hospital.
"Oh my lion son! I might as well be dead! I don't want to act like this, but I can help it. He was my lion, my big, strong son. Oh, my son was soaked in blood," his mother cried.
"If I could I would swap places with them. I wish I could give all my years to my children," she said, sobs wracking her body. Her husband, Naveed's father, sat next to her, mute in his own grief.
"All I wanted to do was hold my son and daughter in law close like this," she added, wrapping her arms around herself, tightly.
"How could they betray me like this? They took them away in coffins."
Pakistan: Lahore attackers have no religion
Pakistan: Lahore attackers have no religion 10:00
The area around the park remains closed, a crime scene. You can see the dark black soot, the scars of where one unidentified suicide bomber carried out this attack. The blackened soil is next to a children's ride.
The perpetrator of this horrific, senseless act likely perished in the flames alongside his scores of victims. He leaves behind, among countless others, a family who say a darkness has befallen them.
Will Lahore monstrosity be a wake-up call?
The answer is, kill these extremist?
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Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
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Mar 30, 2016 - 06:30am PT
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Sorry, but I have to post this. The Bible is WILDLY contradictory and inconsistent. Dig it:
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/by_name.html
The Skeptics Annotated Bible is full of gems that leave any intellectually honest person (rare), saying What the hell? The site is worth a little reading. Enjoy.
BAd
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Mar 30, 2016 - 06:40am PT
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Virgin births.....
This is something that struck me as pure fantasy when I was 5 years old since my parents had already covered reproduction.
So is the story truly that Joe, a middle-Eastern male, hangs around a pregnant Mary and raises her offspring that isn't his?
And isn't the official record that Mary has more children after Jesus?
Just curious...
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Shiho
Trad climber
Salt Lake City
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Mar 30, 2016 - 08:12am PT
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If Jesus' DNA was found and Y chromosome was detected in his DNA, what would that indicate about virgin birth?
If the Bible was about the life of Jesus, then why are there so many historical inaccuracy in it?
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WBraun
climber
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Mar 30, 2016 - 08:23am PT
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A virgin can give birth.
Modern science has no clue how life actually started, their knowledge is very poor flat earth knowledge.
It's all ultimately guessing to them.
The spirit soul under normal conditions enters the the womb thru the male sperm.
But!!!! the soul can enter thru divine intervention without going thru the regular material process.
The Virgin Mary was NOT an ordinary materially conditioned person.
These nitya siddha ever liberated souls who descend according to time and circumstance can do the impossible that the materially condition people deem can't be done.
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Curt
climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
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Mar 30, 2016 - 09:31am PT
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I'm not sure what you're referring to. I believe the four Gospels to be the literal truth of the life of Jesus, who historians at least admit existed.
Most of the four gospels were made up from whole cloth centuries after Jesus lived, based on very scant facts known about his actual life. See for example John Dominic Crossan's "Jesus: A Revolutionary Biography," or any of the works of JDC, Robert Funk and the Jesus Seminar.
[url="http:/https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_Seminar"]http:/https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_Seminar[/url]
Curt
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limpingcrab
Trad climber
the middle of CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 30, 2016 - 10:43am PT
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Sorry, but I have to post this. The Bible is WILDLY contradictory and inconsistent. Dig it:
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/by_name.html
The Skeptics Annotated Bible is full of gems that leave any intellectually honest person (rare), saying What the hell? The site is worth a little reading. Enjoy. No apology necessary! Ya, I've been on that site before. At one point I randomly selected their examples over and over, reading the full passages cited. Hardly any of them were very difficult to reconcile and I began to notice a pattern of selecting the right verses from the right translations out of context to try to make their point. Sort of like taking 20 years of footage of one newscaster and splicing it together to make them look as crazy or intelligent as they desire. If you have a specific example, let me know, but I never found one that wasn't pretty simple to understand when taken in context.
Virgin births.....
This is something that struck me as pure fantasy when I was 5 years old since my parents had already covered reproduction.
So is the story truly that Joe, a middle-Eastern male, hangs around a pregnant Mary and raises her offspring that isn't his?
And isn't the official record that Mary has more children after Jesus?
Just curious...
That's the gist of it, but not too hard to accept if you're talking about the God who created everything. Joseph was actually going to send Mary away so she wouldn't get punished for getting pregnant but an angel told him what was going on (Matthew 1:20). After Jesus was born she had children with Joseph, so it's not like she was a virgin forever. Interestingly Jesus' brother James didn't even believe in Jesus until after he saw him raised from the dead, which confirmed what he had been teaching (1st Corinthians 15:7)
If Jesus' DNA was found and Y chromosome was detected in his DNA, what would that indicate about virgin birth? Nothing new that I can think of.
If the Bible was about the life of Jesus, then why are there so many historical inaccuracy in it?
I don't know what you're referring to.
Most of the four gospels were made up from whole cloth centuries after Jesus lived, based on very scant facts known about his actual life. See for example John Dominic Crossan's "Jesus: A Revolutionary Biography," or any of the works of JDC, Robert Funk and the Jesus Seminar.
http:/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_Seminar
First, I believe the gospels were all written decades, not centuries, after the death and resurrection of Jesus. I just spent the morning rereading studies on the dates of authorship and they seem to all agree with this.
The main flaws, I believe, with studies like the Jesus Seminar and all of the offshoots, is that they treat the books of the bible with extreme skepticism and take just about any other historical account (even if it was written with similar purpose and fashion, like the book of Thomas) at face value. They also tend to exclude the supernatural and then try to make everything else fit, which is obviously not a valid assumption if you're talking about the story of Jesus, God, and the Holy Spirit. Basically, whether people are motivated by proving the Gospels are literal or proving they are not, they are both prejudiced and the writings still stand alone.
Within one generation of the death of Jesus many people were murdered for talking about what they saw him do. If they made up the stories because they like the general message of helping the poor, and new that he was just a man, it's hard for me to believe all of those people went through torture and death without giving up. Especially since they pretty much all gave up hope after he was killed, but before they saw him alive again.
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bentelbow
climber
spud state
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Mar 30, 2016 - 10:54am PT
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Why the lack of miracles for the last 2000 years? Does God care about saving people as he did for the Israelites from Egypt ?
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Curt
climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
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Mar 30, 2016 - 11:14am PT
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The main flaws, I believe, with studies like the Jesus Seminar and all of the offshoots, is that they treat the books of the bible with extreme skepticism...
They also tend to exclude the supernatural...
Yes, that's exactly what real research does.
Curt
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Shiho
Trad climber
Salt Lake City
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Mar 30, 2016 - 12:02pm PT
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I will try to be a bit more clear this time.
Why Matthew traces Joseph's descent from King David via ~28 generations while Luke traces ~41 generations? Old testament prophesied that the Messiah would be descended from Davis but since Joseph wasn't the father of Jesus, then isn't Joseph's ancestry irrelevant? Wan't Jesus born after King Herod's death? Then, why does the Bible talk about Herod's massacre of the innocents like it's relevant?
Also, are you familiar with the great prayer experiment? (Where there were three groups of patients with the same illness. One group was prayed by number of people across the US and didn't know it, the second group was not prayed and didn't know it and the third group was prayed by large number of people and were aware of it. The first two groups recovered about the same rate and the last group did the worse.) What do you conclude from this experiment?
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