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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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+1 Scrubbles
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The Alpine
climber
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Clearly Erik has a commercial interest in his actions that do not mesh with the climbing community.
Ignoring the other ethical issues for a moment, It is a serious conflict of interest to be modifying existing routes for what is arguably no other reason than furthering ones own personal gain.
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steelmnkey
climber
Vision man...ya gotta have vision...
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Erik, ... anchors are replaced at the END of the pitch not in the middle of a pitch.
This. Big time.
Nanook = fu&ktard
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Mike. putting his money where his mouth is with a great idea. Respect!
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F
climber
away from the ground
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If Mike has got a bolt for bolt bounty out, I'll go ahead and do a one beer for one bolt bounty. Same conditions. And yes, that is concurrent with Mikes bolt bounty.
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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If a handy aid practice route is needed for Yosemite Mtn School, isn't there a route on Swan Slab right next to Camp 4 called Aid crack, 2 pitches, with anchors 50 feet up or so? Perfect aid climb practice for 2 pitches, C1. YMS usually has half the climbs at Swan Slab sewn up anyways, so I cannot see how Church Bowl now needs a similar climb that takes precedence over a free climb?
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FrankZappa
Trad climber
Hankster's crew
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Sadly, it appears that Nanook has flipped his lid.
And even more sadly, he will read through every comment of protest and somehow justify his actions.
You made a mistake, Erik. Pull them.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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This is about as absurd as I've ever heard, and I've been climbing in the Valley since the 1960's, when both Church Bowl Tree and the lower pitches of Book of Revelations* were standard, easy aid pitches. I climbed both on aid more than 45 years ago, and freed them both (with a top rope, though) shortly thereafter. I can see no possible justification for adding bolts to BOR. They need to be chopped ASAP.
On a somewhat related topic, though, as one who still enjoys aid climbing, I find myself wondering what the current ethics of aid practice climbing have become. In particular, what happens when a formerly popular aid climb gets freed at a relatively moderate grade? There seems to be a consensus on climbs like Serenity Crack (which was a standard beginner's aid route when I started climbing), but what about Church Bowl Tree and La Escuela? The only difference I can see is that doing Serenity as an all-out aid climb is a more daunting proposition than doing Church Bowl Tree or La Escuela, so beginners respect the former as a free climb, but not the latter two.
It would be nice if there were some sort of understanding of what are and are not acceptable places to learn aid climbing. Perhaps if Erik wants to create a practice aid route, he can do it ground-up, from scratch, and place as many bolts as his heart desires, but preferably far away from any areas with particular scenic values. The idea that Book of Revelations* needs a new set of "anchor" bolts a quarter of the way up the first pitch, however, strikes me as absurd and disrespectful of the rock and of other climbers. No other user group is allowed to make permanent changes to Yosemite the way we can, but I, like John M upthread, fear that we can lose that freedom by indiscriminate bolt placements, particularly to areas easily accessible to non-climbers.
Simply put, replacing anchors is fine, but knock off the retro-bolting. Today would be a good day to start.
John
* I have to think every time I write Book of Revelations, because the Biblical book is that of Revelation (singular), and I've been conditioned to think of the title "Revelations" as wrong.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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The only difference I can see is that doing Serenity as an all-out aid climb is a more daunting proposition
I think the biggest difference is popularity. Serenity Crack often has a line of free climbers. An aid party, taking MUCH more time, would likely be taunted there now. It's just not appropriate.
It's like practicing on the first few pitches of The Nose, in the other thread. If no one else is on it have at it. But if other parties are there to climb the whole route it would be inconsiderate to slowly make your way up the first few pitches when other options are available.
Revelations vs. Revelation reminds me of how many people call Traveler Buttress Traveler's Buttress.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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"...Church Bowl Tree or La Escuela..."
when I practiced aid on these routes (within the last decade) I did it when it was very wet in the Valley... and in winter when there were not many people around, and in fact, we didn't see anyone all day in either areas.
I also used clean aid only... nuts and cams...
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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I think you're right, The Fet, but Serenity became an exclusively clean free climb almost overnight. Very quickly, aid climbers were shamed from venturing there, in contrast to Church Bowl Tree (also quite popular - and trivial to access) or La Escuela (a non-trivial trek with a full aid rack).
I think your analysis pretty well states my general philosophy as well. If I'm slowing someone down, I let them pass as soon as it's convenient and safe. If I know that I'd be slowing down a line of climbers, I stay away. And serious projects take priority. Thus someone climbing the Pacific Ocean Wall should have priority over someone learning aid on its very easy (on aid - not so easy free) first pitch (something that ST's The Road To The Nose recommends as a first aid lead - appropriately, to my mind).
It's mostly common sense and common courtesy. I guess so many of us are flustered because we're not sure what to do when someone ignores both so blatantly and defiantly.
John
edit: Me, too, Ed. In fact, every aid practice climb I've done in the last four years has been like that -- clean and solitary. It reminds me of what climbing in the Valley was like when I first started.
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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There was more than one revelation (discovery) for the FA team at the Church Bowl, so they called their route The Book of Revelations (plural).
The Book of Revelation (singular) is something else. It is a chapter in the Bible written by a man, who was probably under the influence of ergot poisoning (St. Anthony's Fire).
Please, don't agonize that there is no Crack of Despair in the Lord of the Rings books. Or that Tangerine acid may not have actually been on board for that El Cap FA. Also, don't get into a discussion about why there are no Hostess snack cakes called Outer Limits, Twilight Zone, Meat Grinder, or Elevator Shaft.
Don't lose sight of the original topic here, which is random retrobolting of existing, popular, classic climbs in Yosemite Valley.
There shouldn't be any need for a discussion about whether a particular route is appropriate for aid climbing practice. The Park is for everyone, to use as they want. There are plenty of cracks, all over the place. If someone wants to aid up Outer Limits, BFD. The last I heard, lots of people still use aid on the Nose, which is an established free climb at this point.
If I want to aid climb Aunt Fanny's Pantry, to bypass the heinous 5.3c, I have every right to do that.
But, I don't have the right to drill in a bail-anchor mid-pitch, just because I am delusional and think I am a climbing instructor doing a great public service.
Don't let the conversation wander off into non-issues, here. Don't give Nanook any opening for his failed Jedi Mind Trick of changing the subject.
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Sonic
Trad climber
Boulder, Co
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Might be able to get over there today
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Albert
climber
The Valley
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Went to have a look for myself and took some pictures this morning. Wedge bolts. C'mon Eric, the interactions I've had with you have always been good but this time my stance has got to be totally against this. Book of Revelations is a great free climb. I have no issues with someone wanting to aid up it, but a bolted anchor mid-pitch is too much.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Wouldn't someone who knows what they are doing orient the hanger in the direction of pull and at least use screw links tightened with a wrench for the rap rings. Looks like one biner/ring is already gone. So everyone is supposed to use leaver biners to bail of this "anchor"?
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steelmnkey
climber
Vision man...ya gotta have vision...
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Now the dude is slagging on the performance of the guidebook guys, most likely at the same time he's "borrowing" a lot of information from the guides that came before.
Haven't seen a runaway ego like this in a while.
http://www.mountainproject.com/v/new-yosemite-free-climbs-select-guidebook-almost-done---call-for-photos/111264128
Also to be clear: this book came about because people are disappointed with the progress that Don Reid, Clint Cummins, Ed Hartouni, and Eric Gabel have made on their book to date. I run into people everyday who say 'oh yeah, they've been working on that for what, 10 years'. I making this Select book because climbers here, after seeing my bigwall book, asked me to put out a decent select book. Eric, Clint, and Ed(Don at least is a cogent fella)'s suggestion that this book is going to compete with theirs is ridiculous. There has always been a Select book, they've made it clear that they are not making a Select book. The current Select book was outdated when it was printed in 2003. So it's time for the good Yosemite Climbing beta!
I'm happy that my actions have lit the fire under Eric, Ed, Clint, and Don's butts. It's About Time! I'm excited to see their book as well. And as I"ve said to them all from the beginning, my goal is to work with them to get the best info possible out there.
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Spiny Norman
Social climber
Boring, Oregon
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Progress? Today, ten years from the start of it all, there are a lot of people who
don't care where they put bolts, whether on new routes or on classic ones. People
are drilling more and more and climbing less and less.
"Impossible": it doesn't exist anymore. The dragon is dead, poisoned, and the hero
Siegfried is unemployed. Now anyone can work on a rock face, using tools to bend
it to his own idea of possibility.
Some people foresaw this a while ago, but they went on drilling, both on
direttissimas and on other climbs, until they lost the taste for climbing: why
dare, why gamble, when you can proceed in perfect safety? And so they become the
prophets of the direttissima: "Don't waste your time on classic routes - learn to
drill, learn to use your equipment. Be cunning: If you want to be successful, use
every means you can get round the mountain. The era of direttissima has barely
begun: every peak awaits its plumbline route. There's no rush, for a mountain
can't run away - nor can it defend itself."
—Some bitter old coot who probably doesn't even climb any more,
and whose views are surely irrelevant to contemporary Yosemite climbing
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kaholatingtong
Trad climber
Marcus McCoy from somewhere over the rainbow...
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^ Messner I do believe?
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Yes, Messner, "The Murder Of The Impossible."
John
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