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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Jul 30, 2015 - 08:17am PT
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"Ian Gibson was the Bwana that was trampled to death in April of this year by the very elephant he wanted to murder."
Maybe that shit's more dangerous than we think.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Jul 30, 2015 - 08:18am PT
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Wouldn't this thread be more relevant by addressing the root problems that are extinguishing
hope for all life in Africa?
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philo
climber
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Jul 30, 2015 - 08:32am PT
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Yeah this guy is a real peach. Except for his long rap sheet.
Besides conviction for illegal bear baiting there is this little tidbit of his character.
BY DOYLE MURPHY NEW YORK DAILY NEWS Wednesday, July 29, 2015, 6:34 PM
Walter Palmer, a dentist from Minnesota, sparked world-wide rage after allegedly paying $50,000 to kill a beloved lion in Zimbabwe.
A big game-hunting dentist from Minnesota had a female assistant in his sights long before he killed a popular lion, sparking international rage.
Walter Palmer settled a sexual harassment claim six years ago for $127,500, court records showed.
A dental assistant claimed in 2005 the 55-year-old subjected her to unwanted “verbal comments and physical conduct involving her breasts, buttocks, and genitalia,” the settlement agreement showed.
Palmer has been under fire since Zimbabwean conservationists revealed the bow hunter shot Cecil, a famous lion, during a $50,000 guided excursion in the country.
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CA.Timothy
climber
California
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Jul 30, 2015 - 08:43am PT
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Its tough to tell an African with 6 kids in poverty not to go take game illegally and make some money selling it or parts of it. If you lived in abject poverty and could possibly make a year or more salary by poaching and selling horns etc, you likley would.
But that is a separate issue. People are offended by this 1%er who chose to brag about his 1%er activity on social media that the majority of the rest of us find reprehensible.
It is not relevant if Africans do the majority of the illegal poaching Ron. They are not posting the images on social media for the rest of us to critique and judge.
People are outraged at ALL poaching. Someone posted a thread about this hunter, so we are discussing this hunter. If we are guilty of not having a running thread documenting our disdain for all poaching, then I guess we have failed.
Why dont interested nations subsidize villages near areas that are hotbeds for poaching? Pay these locals off, increase their quality of life, and reduce the number of animals that are taken illegally. I do not mind my tax dollars going to that at all.
Teddy famously stated:
“The nation behaves well if it treats the natural resources as assets which it must turn over to the next generation increased and not impaired in value. Conservation means development as much as it does protection.”
and Muir famously stated.
"Mr. President, when will you get over this infantile need to kill things?"
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CA.Timothy
climber
California
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Jul 30, 2015 - 08:50am PT
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hey aren't the Disney characters portrayed by many. YOu can watch videos where they eat baby elephants alive slowly , tortuously..
Often, hunts are done with problem animals such as hippos, lions ,crocs and others.
apex predators are not problem animals. They keep ecosystems healthy and in check. Sorry if they also take some villages livestock or one of their 5 children playing in the river.
I am shocked that you of all people advocate the killing of animals that are 'problems' for people
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Jul 30, 2015 - 08:55am PT
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The ethical arguments against canned hunting are also open to debate. Supporters say that it reduces demand for wild kills; that intensive breeding programmes keep a declining gene-pool healthy; and that rural communities benefit from the industry. Others counter that Africa's wild lion population has plummeted from 200,000 to 30,000 over recent decades, suggesting that humans have a poor track-record of helping the species. And one study, commissioned by environmental groups, found that just 3% of the revenue from trophy hunting ends up in the pockets of locals.
http://www.economist.com/blogs/gulliver/2015/05/trophy-hunting-africa
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CA.Timothy
climber
California
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Jul 30, 2015 - 08:56am PT
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Lets be real Ron. Trophy Hunters may pay tens of thousands in fees, and that may assist some conservation efforts. But they do not do it to 'help out the species'
They do it to get the f*#king head mounted on thier wall. To get the f*#king trophy. If they gave a sh#t about the perpetuation of the species, these 1% as#@&%es would donate the money and then snap some photos.
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CA.Timothy
climber
California
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Jul 30, 2015 - 09:06am PT
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I'll bite on your stupid bait
If my kid got eaten by a mountain lion, I would say it was his time to go. The chances are so rare, that in my risk benefit analysis, the risk of my kid being eaten by a mountain lion next time I am in the Santa Monica Mountains is acceptable in the face of hunting them to extinction to 'keep us safe' and fun had while recreating.
EDIT: side note for Rdog.
I recently watched a great movie called 'The Ghost in the Darkness' with Val Kilmer about man eating lions stalking railroad workers during the turn of the century in Africa.
Killing a lion in the middle of said lion rampaging through your encampment is different than hunting said lion so that he cannot rampage through your encampment at a later date
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10b4me
Social climber
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Jul 30, 2015 - 09:19am PT
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^^^
There have only been three people killed by mountain lions, in California, since 1994.
Ron, I have a question for you. Who managed the wildlife before man got involved?
Seems to me that the animals did a pretty good job themselves.
Ever hear of natural selection?
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CA.Timothy
climber
California
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Jul 30, 2015 - 09:23am PT
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Those "rich sobs" will attend an SCI dinner to the tune of 10K per table, or enter into a hunt raffle , again for $$$$$$$$. Hunters FULLY support their hobby, by light years ahead of us climbers.
If hunters are such conservationists Ron, why dont they mount pictures of the checks they have donated on thier walls instead of heads of animals?
I understand how some fees can assists conservation. I just dont see how mounting a head on your wall does
EDIT
Again Ron, I get your argument. It makes some sense. What does not make sense is the motives of the trophy hunters. They pay high prices for the right to hunt these apex predators before there are no more. They dont care if there are predators left for other generations.
If preserving the species was the goal of hunters, then they would simply donate. But that is not thier goal. Thier goal is the ultra selfish act of obtaining a trophy before its gone. Because after all, it only matters what is mounted on your wall at the end of the trip.
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CA.Timothy
climber
California
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Jul 30, 2015 - 09:31am PT
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Ill bet any amount of money I can cover that hunters donate far more to animal conservation than photographers.
Trophy Hunters do not donate. They pay for the right to take.
If they gave a sh#t, they would donate and not take. But it is obvious what they care about, and it is the trophy. Why else would someone pony up 50k? It sure was not for the company and conversation on that campout....
A donation implies no return services are necessary.
Trophy hunters are expecting something in return for the fees they pay.
Ron, the day when trophy hunters start buying tags/license and then making the conscious decision not to use them, then your argument will hold water
EDIT
And no, I do not donate any money to conservation efforts. Not out of principal, but out of budget constraints. I make a paltry 45k a year as a high school teacher. I however am not claiming my actions are ensuring the survival of species in Africa. Could I afford to donate a token amount? Yes and I should.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Jul 30, 2015 - 09:37am PT
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Ron is wrong, again and again...http://www.commercialappeal.com/sports/billions-for-birds
"Some people might be stunned by the recent revelation that birdwatchers contributed a mind-blowing $36 billion to the United States economy in 2006."
"Employment and Employment Income
Table 9 shows that birding expenditures
in 2006 created 671,000 jobs and $28
billion in employment income. Thus,
each job had an average annual salary
of $41,000. Jobs include both full and
part-time jobs, with a job defined as
one person working for at least part of
the calendar year. Employment income
consists of both employee compensation
and proprietor income.
Federal and State Taxes
Federal and State tax revenues are
derived from birding-related recreational
spending. In 2006, $6 billion in State tax
revenue and $4 billion in Federal tax
revenue were generated."
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Slabby D
Trad climber
B'ham WA
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Jul 30, 2015 - 09:44am PT
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I'm curious.
This guy spent $50,000 to hunt that lion in a country with a per capita GDP of < $1,000. By rough analogy you'd be spending $2,500,000 in this country for the same experience.
What exactly was he getting for that fee? Not a legal permit apparently. Is this essentially a legal risk premium for the local hunter/poacher who helped him locate an animal?
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philo
climber
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Jul 30, 2015 - 09:46am PT
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But absolute fats remain, that without these trophy hunters, MANY African species would now be extinct at the hands of Africans.
Well one absolute fat remains and that is that in your opinion your opinions are fat.
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CA.Timothy
climber
California
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Jul 30, 2015 - 09:46am PT
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Myself for example, have belonged to many conservation groups over the years. Ive given many many hours to habitat restoration, fish transplanting, bird transplanting and wetlands restorations. Its hard dirty work but in the end what I get out of it is knowing I was part of the expansion of wildlife giving back to what has brought me many a good meal, some desired trophies and benefitted my art which has been a business for me for over 4 decades. Heck, I once got all tanked up at a DU dinner and ended up paying 800.00 for a DU hand carved decoy lol! Another time, my girlfriend and I (both of us half tanked) ended up biding against each other for a print we both had our eye on..
Ron I appreciate the info.
My response is that I am differentiating between locals supporting thier local hunting grounds stocked (or naturally filled) with abundant avian life and quadrupeds like in your example, and trophy hunters traveling to exotic locations to trophy hunt apex predators who's numbers have been drastically reduced in the last 30 years.
EDIT
Ron I do respect your opinion and experience in this area, even though we disagree. One last question.
How did all of these species survive in Africa and at home before the intervention of the trophy hunter and other local hunters?
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philo
climber
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Jul 30, 2015 - 09:52am PT
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CA Timothy this is spot on.
If hunters are such conservationists Ron, why dont they mount pictures of the checks they have donated on thier walls instead of heads of animals?
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CA.Timothy
climber
California
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Jul 30, 2015 - 09:57am PT
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White Rhinos for instance. Scimitar Oryx - brought back from the verge of extinction and many other antelope species thanks to Texas ranchers who then full donated, paid for transportation of those animals back to Africa to re-populate tem in their natural habitats.
sounds like that group of hunters attempted to make amends for the sins of previous hunters. I applaud them. Or maybe they were not making amends and just wanted to be sure that they would have a shot at the trophy themselves? Couldn't tell you what their motive are.
I doubt that the Scimitar Orxy nearly went extinct because condos or a freeway were built in his habitat
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Jul 30, 2015 - 10:00am PT
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Ron - it is not possible to separate the "legitimate hunting" from the poaching. The demand created by legitimate hunting causes the poaching.
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Jul 30, 2015 - 10:08am PT
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Ron is in his element.
You go, dog!
It's vanilla past the antelope, and all's well.--Pogo
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CA.Timothy
climber
California
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Jul 30, 2015 - 10:09am PT
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Actually it was poaching and decimation of habitats that had the Oryx extinct from its natural areas. The ONLY reason they are back was hunters money and ranches in Texas that decided to get pro active.
so hunters caused the near extinction and hunters were able to bring the species back to private game reserves in this case. Congrats, sounds like you guys know how to ensure a healthy population in the wild!
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