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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
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Oct 13, 2006 - 10:55pm PT
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Jayzus guys....I didn't SAY there was any minor involved! Ahhh the ADHD generation.....
Couchmaster suggested entrapment by the undercover officer because she "offered sex," saying something like "How could a doctor resist? She was probably hot!" Feeling that logic absurd, I remarked - as an analogy - "and it's the kid's fault a pervert molests them because they "flirted." It was meant to offer a comparison and in no way meant to suggest anything to do with minors in the docor/prescription painkillers case.
Reread the article. Anyone who would think those sexual advances, which (allegedly) occurred before the one where the cop offered sex in exchange for "better" drugs....amounted to entrapment is either employing wishful thinking and/or in denial.
Edit: FWIW, according to the URL pasted below, the doctor in the mentioned case pleaded No Contes. Though, for legal purposes, that is the same as pleading guilty, it's not actually admitting guilt. http://www.insurancefraud.org/newsarchives/news_november2003.htm
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rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
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Oct 13, 2006 - 11:02pm PT
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I've never been very impressed by him, but that is my opinion. What will make me angry is, if indeed this is the same indvidual, is that he violated his oath as a Dr.
Believe me, I've dealt with more than my fair share of Dr's with my wifes cancer. We had little choice but to trust them and their judgement implicitly. To find out that one of them was doing the kinds of things that he alegedly did would probably push me close to the edge.
If he did indeed do things, he deserves to be burned at the stake.
I for one am tired of this "we must forgive and love one another" bullshit in our new "no fault society".
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville
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Oct 13, 2006 - 11:22pm PT
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I don't know MM.
I don't read his posts as they aren't even entertainment to me.
That Said, there seems to be alot of judging going on here.
If you truly feel a need to rake this guy over the coals, (as if he'd harmed you in some way) at least wait until you get the facts.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Oct 13, 2006 - 11:44pm PT
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I've leave my torch unlit for now. Vicodin isn't heroin. My doc once prescribed me a small amount to keep in my first aid kit.
Some folks do have a problem with painkillers. Still we each have our own poisons. Somebody goes to a doc and gets a recommendation for medical Marijuana. Good doc? Bad doc? What about if it's Vicodin?
Personally, since Alcohol, probably the biggest problem drug of all is legal, I'm going to go libertarian here and not care that he let some lady have her vice.
Billing insurance for it was wrong, but Vicodin is dirt cheap, so I'll call it bad but would rather have cheating defense contractors like Haliburton put in the hard time for billions in fraud rather than $30 in pills.
As for the sexy stuff, he may problem areas, I don't know, but if some police woman offers sex for stronger pills than she's already getting from him, that pretty low on my sleaze radar. Not what I would hope to do, or condone from my friends, but only a tad worse than bartering with a hooker.
Not calling him a saint, but it bothers me that the crime of the century is being perped in Iraq and we're upset at MM for his vices.
It's perhaps unfortunate, however understandable that "creepy" behaviour is being alleged here without concrete examples. I'd be seriously tweaked if he emailed me wanting to hold hands sometime, but would receive the suggestion warmly from some desirable woman. Does that make him wrong and the woman right? The real test is how he reacted if told to lay off. Sexual harrassment can be real and needs to be taken seriously but both sides need to be considered out of fairness.
Peace
Karl
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Oct 13, 2006 - 11:57pm PT
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It's clear the Feds' tactic was a form of entrapment and that completely sucks. But you don't get on their radar for a sting like that for no reason. If it were just about the drugs they would have sent a man. That they enlisted a female agent and kept the sting going until it got sexual implies they were after him for more than just the drugs / insurance count as they clearly had him on that count long before they actually popped him.
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cintune
climber
Penn's Woods
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Oct 14, 2006 - 12:01am PT
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"But you don't get on their radar for a sting like that for no reason."
Doesn't that kind of ring a bell? Sort of like Mountainman is now in his own little SuperTopoGitmo, huh?
Personally I think I'd rather get waterboarded than strung up like this.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Oct 14, 2006 - 12:21am PT
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It would only take our vaunted Executive to argue that those who act inappropriately or somehow differently than the "rest of us" are a clear and present danger to be regarded no differently than 'enemy combatants' and they'd get their own gitmo in a heartbeat...
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Oct 14, 2006 - 08:05am PT
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MM, you out there?
if you are, then i wish you the best and good luck. you can come back here. chances are, this thing would blow over quickly and only a few will ever bring it up again.
there is nothing here that anyone can say that will be worse than what you have already been through. sorry if i said anything too bad earlier.
may your god bless you and be your judge. i will not judge you, i am not qualified. i have not met you nor do i know the roads you have travelled. roads that may have been fraught with difficult passages.
i myself chose roads that were bad on occaision. road washed out signs, do not enter. i entered them, some of them. i made it through, sometimes i had to backtrack to the beginning. but i could see the mountains shining in the distance. i could see the mecca that was my quest. but on these roads it was where i found that the mecca was only a vision. i learned that it was the roads, bad and good, that were life. the vision guided me but the road made me find what i needed from life. it was inside me all the time but it was the washouts, dips and potholes that made me look inward so that i could pass safely.
it sounds like some of the roads you went down had a bridge out. but it also sounds like you made it through, somehow. i am sure it was a struggle and if your god was helping you then that is good. but he helps those who try mtnman. i hope this is only a dip in the road. good luck.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Oct 14, 2006 - 08:45am PT
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I've only climbed one short pitch with MM and while I'd concur with Lockers assesment I've met a lot of "characters" that play our game. Many I'd want little to do with in "real life".
I'll primarily remember him as a proud papa bringing his daughter out for graduate school. I hope he gets the help he needs.
Other than some charity from some unexpected quarters, this has been a virtual stoning that would make the Talaban proud.
This incident has been more revealing about the character of some of the regulars here than MM's. My oppinon of and respect for some has increased imeasurably.
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NeverSurfaced
Trad climber
Someplace F*#ked!
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Oct 14, 2006 - 10:06am PT
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I can't believe I've read this entire thing - I think I might need some pills now!
You know, I thought this was all pretty funny at first, but now you a-holes and your moral high ground have phucked the whole thing up.
Thanks a lot guys, now I feel like a dick.
I need to hug somebody.
BTW- WTF with the blue M&Ms - Just unnatural IMO.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Oct 14, 2006 - 11:37am PT
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I can't believe I've read this entire thing - I think I might need some pills now!
LOL NeverSurfaced
Sort of reminds me of a 'dirty' job I had to do on a Sunday paper here in Ireland. Another journalist and I had to transcribe some tapes that were wiretapped (illegally?) by this woman's estranged husband and handed to the newspaper by him.
He wanted to get back at her because she was having an affair with this priest (Catholic, sort of elderly chap from a wealthy family, she was a hairdresser from the Northside of Dublin, not that good looking either - I also discovered from the tape conversations that she was having another affair with a younger priest, a colleagues of the other priest EDIT, that her husband didn't know about).
Anyway, after listening to the tapes after a couple of hours, my colleague, Sinead, and I felt dirty. We both agreed we felt like we needed a shower.
Sometimes journalism is not a nice profession to work in.
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Matt
Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
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Oct 14, 2006 - 06:08pm PT
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sure dood-
what locker said, come on back and *take your medicine* like a man!
(snicker-snicker)
(that was a medical pun, didjya catch that one?)
edit- the poor guy, he didn't even get any! can't you just see the look on his face when he found out he wasn't gettin poked, he was gettin popped? classic...
=)
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Oct 14, 2006 - 06:36pm PT
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locker,
nice posts.
i bet if MM comes back i wont even get as upset with his posts. kind of like knowing someone better and putting up with their nuances....
so MM, if you have read through all of this, recognize that nearly everyone has some dirt in their lives. often times, if it is kept buried it goes anaerobic and stinks worse. but if it comes up for air, it can be dealt with.
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cintune
climber
Penn's Woods
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Oct 14, 2006 - 06:55pm PT
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Anyone remember the SNL skit where Steve Martin played an old noob surfer trying to fit in at the beach? Same kind of uncomfortable funny/not-funny vibe here. It's interesting to me how MM can provoke both spite (for his political/religious rants) and empathy (mainly from Locker, who actually met him) in all this. Really interesting from an ethical point of view. Interesting to see who is able to view it as a black-and-white case of comeuppance for either 1: dissing Karl et al. for being "unamerican" or 2: hitting on unidentified ST women in some unspecified creepy way. Interesting to weigh either or both of these offenses as deserving of having a past indescretion blown up in his face. Interesting that there's a chance he's not even the same guy, although it looks 99% that he is. Interesting just like a train wreck. This damn well isn't the kind of thing I got interested in this board for, and yet I can't help checking it out whenever the thread pops back up to the top. Like this guy's weakness has become my own by osmosis or something. I wish Haan, Lowe, Breedlove, Stannard, and the rest would just flood the board with gripping climbing stories and push this whole thing into obscurity where it belongs. Crazy scandal-mongering bullsh#t. Mountain Man, RIP dude. This was obviously a much tougher crowd than you ever thought, whatever the hell you were thinking.
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anachronism
Big Wall climber
Yosemite, CA
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Oct 14, 2006 - 07:06pm PT
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Should I hit the delete button? I feel like it but I also feel this thread is now beyond my OP - it's a life of its own owned by everyone involved. So it's up to ya'll's.
I too wish this forum was flooded with climbing. I'm a hyprocrite at this point though. Won't deny that (though I'd say my hypocrisy pales in comparison - allegid, of course)
The jury is out for me on if "knowing what I know, seeing what I see, reading what I've read, would I do it again?" I can't say "Nope" is the direction I'm leaning though at this point.
Not knowing what I know now (how this thread would evolve) I have to say at some point, it would have happened - knowing what I know/knew before posting. Certianly another "global warming is based on made up facts" or another "american hating, satan loving, pinko-commie" comments almost w/o a doubt would have sent me over the edge.
nuke it or not?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Oct 14, 2006 - 07:08pm PT
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Doyle prefered to be anonymous anyway, and probably won't be back as Mountain Man. I think I may have outed him long ago because of some remarks he made about a peak in Nepal googled up nicely with his email address.
Anyway, I predict in the next few months we'll get a new conservative friend on Supertopo and we'll all wonder if it's Jody, Doyle, or Mister X.
In the meantime, It could be transformative for Doyle to drop in and share his thoughts even if he's going to retire the Mountain Man Character (or not). Never know how it might turn out.
On other hand, we can be a hardcore bunch and I don't know how cruxy it would feel to Doyle.
Still, being a Christian, there's a certain adventurous joy in embracing your persecuters, damn the torpedos. You don't get that opportunity to check it out every day.
Peace
Karl
Edit: Just saw the post above. I'd give the nuking idea extra weight if MM chimed in, if only to request the thread nuked. Otherwise, there are a lot of dynamics, personalities and perspectives presented on this thread such that it has a value despite it's ugliness.
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anachronism
Big Wall climber
Yosemite, CA
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Oct 14, 2006 - 07:11pm PT
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Karl - I don't think he ever attempted to hide his name/ST persona relationship.
His name / AKA mountain man is all over other climbing websites.
Second link, first post in this thread.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Oct 14, 2006 - 07:15pm PT
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Cintune,
Clearly no one here is perfect or above reproach in some way or another, certainly not me. But part of the issue with MM, and with conservatives in general, is the sheer hypocrisy that dominates when you lift the hood. I have far less problem with what most of these folks are in reality - what I have a real problem with is what they try to "sell" as opposed to what they live. When the projected and the real become so disparate I don't care what the deal is - right, left , sport, trad, atheist, fundamentalist - it's the distortion field that is the problem.
I'd hope MM would come back having examined the gap between what he posts versus what he lives and consider chilling a bit relative to all the sanctimonious religious and political noise. In hindsight, it all sounds like he was attempting to preach to himself as though if he said it enough he might actually live it. I'd say either 'walk the talk' or 'talk the walk' - either one would make for more "authentic" interactions here in the SuperTopo community and I'd personally welcome him back.
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cintune
climber
Penn's Woods
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Oct 14, 2006 - 07:41pm PT
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Yeah. Some people just naturally get carried away with their own rhetoric, but there's also the idea of not taking any of it too personally. If someone calls me unamerican or whatever, I mean, so the f*#k what? Maybe if we all took these scribblings less seriously and focused on the fact that we're here because of a shared insanity for vertical exposure then our differences wouldn't matter so much. At least until some of us either start getting midnight visits from the neocon secret police or blown up by Allah's misguided children, anyway. "F*#k it, dude, let's go climbing."
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Matt
Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
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Oct 15, 2006 - 02:23am PT
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lois,
yer a ditz, and you miss the whole gist of ithe foley bizz.
the shizzile is that hastert et al knew he was cavorting w/ teenage boys, knew these boys who were away from home, away from their families, away from their parents, were being chased around by this fifty-something in comgress, and they swept it under the rug in order to have a single safe seat repeat as a "R" in the house.
yuk
but you don't get that angle from faux news, so you are absent that issue in yer own head. nevertheless, that's the real problem.
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