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Five15Factor2
climber
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Ahh. What if I climb it blind-folded solo, and don't touch any of the bolts?
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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What if you are cragging one pitch splitters, is it all a flash because it is obvious what to do?
If I saw someone hang dogging a route, than lead it clean on my first attempt and call it an onsight, technically someone can accuse me of not using the term correctly..but honey badger don't give a sh#t. :) Who really gives a sh#t what someone calls it. By the time it really matters what you call it, you will know what terminology to use. Personally I have no problem calling Dawn Wall or La Dura Dura a redpoint. If someone comes around to claim a FIRST RP of the route, I will probably think it is a little silly, but cool in the same. It sure increases the difficulty! Oh climbing gods, give us more strength so we can pinkpoint our projects...
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Alpamayo
Trad climber
Davis, CA
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Only if nobody is around to see it, since you would undoubtedly pick up on the mental energy and subtle gasps from the onlookers that would tell you if you were going the right way. But then what would be the point, since sport climbing is all about ego and impressing your friends?
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Reading this thread leads me to the following conclusions:
1. Some posters seem awfully sensitive about style.
2. Those who purport not to care about style seem particularly touchy when others allege deficiencies in style.
3. Only moving from hold-to-hold constitutes climbing. Everything else, and particularly elements that formed an integral part of mountaineering and rock climbing through the troglodytic 20th Century, has no relevance now.
I appreciate those who simply climb, unconcerned about collecting ratings or style points, but the protestations of several posts in this thread demonstrate that rather few people truly don't care what others think of their ascents.
John
Edit: That sounds right, Locker. Personally, I specialize in yellow pointing.
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Port
Trad climber
Norwalk, CT
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"Pink Pointing" emasculates and degrades a common style of sporting climbing. That's why you get the reaction.
But really, who f*#king cares?
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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Topic Author's Reply - May 7, 2015 - 10:18am PT
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The clipping is just a necessity and not particularly relevant to the climbing.
First of all, thank you for contributing your thoughts to this discussion.
The point above is where we disagree and i'll tell you why.
Last night we climbed a local route called You Snooze, You Lose 10d. A route which I have redpointed in the past, before my Spinal Cord Injury.
I was able to free it on toprope, a full two years before i ever got the redpoint. The reason why i couldn't redpoint it was hanging on at the crux long enough to make the second to last clip was a real feat. It's still a feat with the draw on, but less so. For me, until i could walk up to the crag and get on it, without preparing it, it just didn't feel right.
Now if there's pre-placed, gear OTOH, I think the distinction is relevant.
This is where it gets really sticky IMHO. The common disuse of the term pinkpoint, is probably why mags report certain hard trad ascents on pre-placed gear as redpoints.
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, but i'd rather do that then yell insults at each other!
Jlp- i'm pretty sure i was out of diapers by the age of two, but i'll have to call my parents and confirm that for you since my memory seems to fail me at the moment.
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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Topic Author's Reply - May 7, 2015 - 10:23am PT
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3. Only moving from hold-to-hold constitutes climbing. Everything else, and particularly elements that formed an integral part of mountaineering and rock climbing through the troglodytic 20th Century, has no relevance now.
Thanks John. I respect where climbing has been, and where it is going.
"Pink Pointing" emasculates and degrades a common style of sporting climbing. That's why you get the reaction.
No it doesn't. That's the problem. It's a valid style, but a redpoint is just the next level.
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Alpamayo
Trad climber
Davis, CA
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Plus, there's a real art/strategy to convincing my stronger partners to "warm up" on my projects so that the draws will already be there when I climb.
I'll also (gasp) go bolt to bolt just to get the draws up for subsequent attempts.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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I've done some sport climbs I could not have done were the draws not already there. That means there's a difference.
That said I think the pinkpoint thing originated in reference to climbs protected with gear, not bolts. This is where the difference really matters.
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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Topic Author's Reply - May 7, 2015 - 10:26am PT
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I've done some sport climbs I could not have done were the draws not already there. That means there's a difference.
Exactly. If there is indeed a difference, why not use the more suitable term to describe it?
Many times certain sport routes were bolted with the idea that the draws would be prehung before the lead attempt is made. This puts the hanger in a weird location for clipping on the onsight, and usually puts the climber in the position to hang them top down from an adjacent route.
This is entirely true Greg. And as Clint pointed out,
"redpoint" means "all non-fixed pro is placed during the successful lead".
Which includes perma draws. But pre hanging the draws is where I draw the line.
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Alpamayo
Trad climber
Davis, CA
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As I said upthread, sport climbers are not arguing that there isn't a difference, they're just saying the difficulty of clipping is not relevant to the difficulty of climbing. You don't have to agree, but that is largely where modern sport climbing has gone. It is not some conspiracy to inflate ability, just an evolution of focus and language.
And OA, I feel just fine about it (pre hung draws, that is).
Glad you have your standards BM, maybe I'll have to get you to hang my draws! If we go climb together, can I use my stickclip?
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johntp
Trad climber
socal
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Never got the pink/red/purple point thing. If gear is preplaced it is aid.
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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Topic Author's Reply - May 7, 2015 - 10:37am PT
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It is not some conspiracy to inflate ability, just an evolution of focus and language.
For me it's a degradation of language. It's getting less specific.
Glad you have your standards BM, maybe I'll have to get you to hang my draws! If we go climb together, can I use my stickclip?
Heck ya bro! Do whatever you want, as long as i can jest about it. ;)
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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And besides, how will anyone understand the name of the climb "Pretty in Pinkpoint?"
John
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blr
climber
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If it's only about gymnastics, and the protection is irrelevant, then pre-hung draws and pre-hung ropes should be treated the same, stylistically.
If not, then the descriptive terms should be relevant, even if it offends the delicate sensibilities of some people.
I really don't care, but I don't see how you can have it both ways without admitting it's about ego.
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Five15Factor2
climber
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Alpamayo hit the nail on the head. Modern hard sport climbs are almost always done with the draws pre-hung, it's the norm. Being that it is the norm, there is no longer a need to have a specific term for it. Nowadays at the sport crags people don't really even use the term 'redpoint'. You either sent or you didn't. That's it.
Of course this is only based on my own experiences and perception, but I'm a really bad-ass hard sport climber guy so my opinion matters a whole lot.
EDIT: BLR, regarding pre-hung ropes (top-roping?: I agree for sure there is an element of ego, in that top-roping is lame, but there is also a bit of difference in that the belayer could be giving some tension thus actually aiding in the send? Although with the close spacing of today's sport routes it's possible for this to occur on lead but less so I guess.
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Alpamayo
Trad climber
Davis, CA
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Because pre hung ropes are not always possible and not always easier.
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johntp
Trad climber
socal
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If it's only about gymnastics, and the protection is irrelevant, then pre-hung draws and pre-hung ropes should be treated the same, stylistically.
Preplaced pro is aid.
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Norwegian
Trad climber
dancin on the tip of god's middle finger
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so a redpoint is a menstruating pink point.
i always think inside the box.
what if we get the point pregnant
with our dick draw?
then it never menstruates,
instead we experience a son or daughter point.
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blr
climber
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Because pre hung ropes are not always possible and not always easier.
So in certain circumstances, a top rope is harder than a lead? Should that be celebrated?
And what about in those other circumstances where it is possible/easier?
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