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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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Mar 18, 2015 - 12:34pm PT
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We all do it or have done it, wether its hanging on a head on an aid route without testing it because, if it blew, you don't want to have to place another one. Yelling off belay at the top of Intersection rock before you have built an anchor because its big and relatively flat up there and only a dummy would trip and pitch off the edge. 3rd. classing 5th. class terrain because its leagues below your capability. Not placing a piece as soon as you leave the anchor because its piss easy climbing. Back cleaning an aid pitch to save gear or make it easier for your follower.
Maybe this is a reminder that we all need to be more vigilant and trust fixed gear a little less.
It would seem he thought he had a semi-redundant system too. Simply clip into the first bolt with the stick clip, then safety to it when you get there and clip the next one. Weight that bolt before you unclip the one you're on.
In this case it looks like he had a decent stance to clip from, so he probably didn't fully weight the bolt before he unclipped his safety. (Or it was too short so he couldn't) I can see ground anchors as a real pita at org, so this is probably why he chose to do it this way, but I would use the first two bolts as an anchor with a running grigri belay.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Mar 18, 2015 - 12:42pm PT
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Clint,
We got work now. Roger,
Are we going to the Owens River Gorge, to look for 5/16"?
Or Meadows - I saw Greg's list.
Some in the Valley, too.
There are some on the first 2 pitches of Perfect Vision that have been rightly described as the ugliest bolts people have ever seen - Joel and I really had to bash to get them in. It seems like we may have methods to remove & replace them now.
P.S. I have broken that rule about not trusting a single bolt, too many times. Often it's a newly placed stainless 3/8". But this may happen to me someday. Have done the stick clipping ascent a few times, but with a belayer and left the bolts clipped in.
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steelmnkey
climber
Vision man...ya gotta have vision...
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Mar 18, 2015 - 12:58pm PT
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Maybe this is a reminder that we all need to be more vigilant and trust fixed gear a little less.
I don't look at a critique of what happened in terms of the individual. I'm really bummed when anyone buys it climbing, whether I knew them or not, but the best thing I'd want people to take from any accident I had would be the knowledge that stuff like this can happen and we should always be vigilant and follow the rules to maximize our safety.
Reminder for sure. The rule not so much directed at any fixed gear in my view. The reminder should be independent of the piece: Always have redundancy in place whenever it's possible.
Yeah, we all do it, but yeah, we shouldn't. So reminders are good.
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Roger Brown
climber
Oceano, California
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Mar 18, 2015 - 01:22pm PT
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Clint,
If I get my volunteer status back it will be in the valley. I have seen
lots of them. Chapel Wall, Eagle Creek, Public Sanitation?
If no volunteer status, maybe the Dome Land wilderness.
Really any hand drilling area that I can survive in money wise. I really can't afford another season in TM. A week or two maybe, but not for months.
Hope to be back in the valley a week from next Monday. I will E-Mail you when I know for sure.
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 18, 2015 - 01:30pm PT
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Clint, I'd think that we ought to develop a list of the most popular routes/belay anchors which we know are predominantly 5/16" buttonheads and prioritize from there.
I've climbed a lot at Owens and replaced a lot of bolts down there, and I can't remember ever seeing a single 5/16" buttonhead there. But you see them all over the place in certain areas, enough that it's hard to remember which bolts.
I think as far as Tuolumne, the single bolt belay on pitch 1 of Great Pumpkin would be highest priority - it has gear backup, but lots of people clip into a bolt, lean back, then mess with gear. That one is a bit of a tough one since I think it was not original even though it's been there for a couple or three decades (need to research since sometimes a bolt was not always mentioned at belays). Next would be the East Cottage sport routes, which are always popular, and bolted in such a way that a bolt failure in the first 3 bolts would probably end up with decking.
Actually - are the bolts on the crux pitch of Oz 5/16" buttonheads? Those were replaced in the mid-late '90s before the ASCA was around, I'm thinking those might be buttonheads? That crux has a nasty ledge to hit so those would be priority too.
I'd think that for each area we'd want to concentrate on the most popular routes.
Also I would guess that bolts that were pounded super hard might be more likely to have fractures (or not?)? So Perfect Vision might be high on the list?
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 18, 2015 - 01:31pm PT
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Roger, several of the major domes at Courtright are in Wilderness, with nearby free camping. Most all bolts will be 1/4" or 5/16" buttonheads. Zero services, cell phone reception, or pay phone option without driving 45 minutes to the Wishon store.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Mar 18, 2015 - 01:37pm PT
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Thanks for the ideas, Greg!
(Of course the 5/16" in the Valley will still be prime targets.
We were "running out" of 1/4".)
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Roger Brown
climber
Oceano, California
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Mar 18, 2015 - 01:38pm PT
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Everything on Drug Dome was replaced in 2013. A lot of 5/16 were replaced that season in TM. I think OZ was done .I will check the log book.
EDIT: Log shows no bolts replaced on OZ
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benkraft
climber
San Francisco
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Mar 18, 2015 - 01:57pm PT
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Almost positive the oz had buttonheads, including a spinner, in August 2014. But they might have been petzl long lifes, I'm a newb at this.
This past weekend a partner decided not to get on bitches' terror at church bowl because it looked (from bishops terrace) to be all buttonheads. Unfortunately I was arguing that they were probably bomber...
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limpingcrab
Trad climber
the middle of CA
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Mar 18, 2015 - 02:06pm PT
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please add about half of Sequoia National Park to your list of crappy bolts. Especially Moro Rock.
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 18, 2015 - 02:07pm PT
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Hi Roger,
I was up replacing bolts on Oz two or three different times, we never messed with the "new" 5/16" buttonheads on the crux pitch. The priority was fixing up the anchors, and the 1/4" pro bolts particularly the ones on the last pitch (the first two of which were super annoying to replace - ended up coming in from above over that sharp roof backed up on 2 different 11mm statics plus an edge protector, and I had to move them a few inches).
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Mar 18, 2015 - 02:11pm PT
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Over 50 years of clipping, and I replaced bolts before the ASCA, like on the East Buttress of Middle (nasty, getting those lead shields out)
and I have learned so much from you guys on this thread. You are true pros.
Thank You!
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 18, 2015 - 02:15pm PT
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Thank YOU Doug, you probably saved a few broken bones or worse by doing that. Some of the most important bolts around were replaced by locals long before the ASCA came on the scene.
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jonnywoodward
climber
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Mar 18, 2015 - 03:09pm PT
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If ever there was a place that needed good quality bolts it is Tuolumne. If ever there were two deserving climbers it is Clint and Roger. We need those guys out there this Summer and if the significant cost of a month's camping is a deterrent, we all lose. There's gotta be a way.
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 18, 2015 - 04:41pm PT
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Tuolumne is generally in pretty good shape. There are definitely some old nasty bolts out there, but even many obscure and severely runout routes have been replaced. There are entire domes (or big sections of large domes) with no old bolts left, and some with only a handful.
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ruppell
climber
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Mar 18, 2015 - 05:13pm PT
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Roger
If you do decide to replace the stuff in the Domelands, Bart Dome is in real need of an upgrade. Most all of the bolts except for Mike Mason Memorial route are time bombs. Like short 1/4" leeper hanger time bombs. If you need any beta or need a hand on a weekend I might be able to help. Send me a PM here if you wish. And thanks for all the stuff you have gotten to already.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Mar 18, 2015 - 05:23pm PT
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If ever there was a place that needed good quality bolts it is Tuolumne. Like Greg said, Tuolumne is mostly fixed now.
Roger actually started with summers (2005, 2006) replacing in Tuolumne,
before doing the summers in Yosemite Valley.
Roger was running Greg, Karin and friends ragged in Tuolumne, fixing ropes for him.
http://safeclimbing.org/areas/california/tuolumne.htm
In 2013, it was mostly obscure stuff that we replaced in Tuolumne - Whale's Back had the most bolts. And West Farthing Wall.
I'm glad we got the last of the 1/4" bolts on Sunshine (Drug Dome), though.
P.S. Nice work replacing the crux bolts on Hall of Mirrors, Jonny. We felt a little bad about pulling them for 3/8", as the stainless 1/4" were still looking great.
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA/Boulder, CO
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Mar 18, 2015 - 09:34pm PT
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There are some 5/16" buttonheads at Tollhouse Rock. The route which starts just left of the Direct Start to the Direct has at least one on it.
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 19, 2015 - 06:30am PT
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Wow, thanks Bill, that's amazing detail for bolts bought almost 25 years ago!
As far as 5/16" buttonheads snapping, I just heard this from Kevin Powell about recent bolt replacement in Joshua Tree - the main thing to note is that a couple he replaced down there recently snapped very easily during replacement:
And yes I heard about the buttonhead failure. Sounds truly tragic. We have removed about 20 of the 5/16 recently here in Josh. A few spalled the edge of the hole but most come out with just a little more effort than a 1/4" version. In the coarse grained Josh rock I know the 5/16 will come out so try and pull them when possible and replace with 1/2". I have sheered a couple of heads with just a few lite hits of the hammer on the tuning fork. Don't have a list but know there are hundreds here in Josh.
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alpinist
Trad climber
tahoe city
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Mar 19, 2015 - 07:20am PT
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The Hulk is definitely on the list. I know there is one of the largest assortment of bolt types and condition on that beauty. Rusty 1/4, 5/16" button heads. 5/16" sleeve bolts (yikes!). and a variety of high use belay/rappel stations that still sport the old "open" cold shuts.
Anyway, I still get up there from time to time and will make an effort to replace poor bolts.
I had a close friend die in a anchor failure incident (not bolts) and it lit a fire under my butt to replace the nasty old protection and anchor bolts at our local crag. There was a little heat from a minority, but decided I could take it. Any time I heard claims that replacing (not adding) bad bolts "changed" the character of a route I would reply, "yeah, it went from fun, challenging and stupid to fun, challenging and smart.
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