Ammon's House of Cards

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Euroford

Trad climber

Chicago, IL

Sep 12, 2006 - 03:19pm PT

for the record, i have no idea what ron ment by bringing up lassie. but if ron wants lassie, ron gets lassie.

and note: NO PINS on that sheepdogs rack.

the camera knocks years off the life of climbing gear.

ouch: if i was ammon, i'd frame that sh#t.

feelio Babar

Trad climber

Sneaking up behind you...

Sep 12, 2006 - 03:20pm PT

"The trouble is, Ben, that is more than most are willing to do and the damage is cumulative."

Ron has a great point. Most folks don't even try....

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber

Toquerville, Utah

Sep 12, 2006 - 03:26pm PT

Fat,
I'm disappointed in you.
Does lack of ability justify your altering a route if its not needed?
You don't have to free it, but you should respect that if left unaltered the route could last.

Ben Rumsen

Social climber

No Name City ( and it sure ain't pretty )

Sep 12, 2006 - 03:54pm PT

" Are there places pitons can be used for protection where NO other protection (cams, chocks, hexes, ballnutz ... or whatever) will work? " -

Absolutely. Nothing clean fits in Rurp seam or a knifeblade seam for instance.

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber

Toquerville, Utah

Sep 12, 2006 - 04:02pm PT

That's why I do allow for some use of nailing, but there has to be a plan for route preservation or else the action becomes selfish and unethical.
Ethics is a term that speaks to the way our actions affect others.

Fat,
I'm disappointed with you. You side stepped the question.

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Sep 12, 2006 - 04:08pm PT

"This thread is valuable in that it raises the ethics question and makes each climber re-think personal values. I'm sure Ammon is considering his decision making, only he can make the personal values choice."

OMG, something fattrad and I can agree on, hallelujah [edit: Allahu Akbar]!!! And I agree with Dingus, now this - this is a religious war - but one we can all win I think...

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Sep 12, 2006 - 04:17pm PT

"" Are there places pitons can be used for protection where NO other protection (cams, chocks, hexes, ballnutz ... or whatever) will work? " -

Ben: Absolutely. Nothing clean fits in Rurp seam or a knifeblade seam for instance."

How about a #1 Crack'n up? (big smile...)

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber

Toquerville, Utah

Sep 12, 2006 - 04:21pm PT

Don't count your chickens Healy. We still have some bath water with THIS baby.

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Sep 12, 2006 - 04:24pm PT

I'm with you Ron. As an old sandstone man myself, I try not to scratch too hard or too often...

WBraun

climber

Sep 12, 2006 - 04:27pm PT

Well down the street a few minutes ago we heard the sound of the one hand beating ................

What do yah gonna do now?

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber

Toquerville, Utah

Sep 12, 2006 - 04:33pm PT

Fat,
not sure what you mean by the Potter problem. If I had put up a route that required pins and then he climbed it hammerless I would feel honor bound not to alter it further, even if it meant being denied a route that I had actually established.
I sure as hell wouldn't blame him for someone else's decision to exploit it for their own purposes, or vandalize his house out of foolish resentment.

Werner,
there's usually an option to back off.

the Fet

climber

A urine, feces, and guano encrusted ledge

Sep 12, 2006 - 04:39pm PT

Although not directly in line with the original post, Fatty brings up a good point.

For example, say there is a route that's mostly clean and has a short section of nailing. Someone comes along and frees the nailing section at 5.14X. Now the route has gone clean. Only the one super stud chick who freed it can get it clean. Does that mean no one else can ever nail that section and climb the route again?

Euroford

Trad climber

Chicago, IL

Sep 12, 2006 - 04:45pm PT

Ammon can sleep soundly knowing that this thread is no longer about him, but just simply another opportunity for everybody to rehash and restate their opinion about nailing.

we should just have a FAQ stickied to the top of the forum where everybody gets one paragraph to state their rant. then in the future we can just refer to it and avoid this kind of mess all together.

hey, but at least its about climbing!

note: its been raining all day, i'm going a little stir crazy being stuck in the office. normaly i don't think i'm this annoying. thanks for helping me pass the time.

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber

Toquerville, Utah

Sep 12, 2006 - 04:50pm PT

Fet, I believe that I answered that in the previous post.

Highly hypothetical in my case though, for while I might use pins to constructively scar/ open up a crack, I would make certain it was clean climable after I left it.

Trashman

Trad climber

SLC

Sep 12, 2006 - 04:56pm PT

i also don't think it's that far out, Fet.

we don't need to deal in extreme hypotheticals on this one. The route in question as well as Crack in the Cosmic Egg, The Lowe Route on AL, and Swoop Gimp all see pins on occasion, even today, despite the fact that they've gone clean numerous times at C3/4.(Not positive about CITCE, but i know of pitches on that one that have seen C and A ascents in the last year.

Trashman

Trad climber

SLC

Sep 12, 2006 - 05:11pm PT

". . .but I think all it means is that you can now clip the additional bolts the FFAscetionist added to free the route with a long cheater stick."

no, no, no, jim, you're missing the point. there's no bolt to clip, even with a cheater stick. Free climbers aren't allowed to alter the route, only aid climbers.

edit:i've always found this part of the contradiction funny.
"You better not add any f#cking bolts to my route just b/c you think it's scary"
"I'll nail whatever the f#ck i want if i'm scared up there"

Ouch!

climber

Sep 12, 2006 - 05:30pm PT

"Fat,
I'm disappointed with you. You side stepped the question."

LOL! Don't worry Ron. He'll be back when he gets his marching orders explained. Maybe Matt can help him out.

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber

Toquerville, Utah

Sep 12, 2006 - 05:42pm PT

Trash,
I don't think you're obliged to free it, merely not to alter it.

Perhaps a combo of dicey clean aid with the odd free move will suffice, perhaps a cheater stick, perhaps something else.
But if it can be done clean how selfish is it for someone to alter it whining about about safety when they can choose to climb something that lies more within their abilities?