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Lynne Leichtfuss
Sport climber
moving thru
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Oct 29, 2014 - 01:06pm PT
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Thanks much, PhilG. OBTW, did I meet you at a Face Lift in Valley of Wow 3-4 years ago? Werner, thanks for your comments too.
I appreciate what the Pope has to say and I like what Werner says also. I don't know if we can "nail" with words what each of us/them are trying to communicate. I agree with Werner and I agree with the Pope. Either or both theories work for me.
The bottom line for me is that there is a God. The rest of the bottom line for me is found in Matthew Chapters 5-7. If people actually studied jesus and his words and gave it much consideration I think they would no longer simply toss off the whole notion of God.
I have benefited much from the past 7 years on this forum. I try to really analyze and think about some of the Threads and posts and I have changed in my thought processes and reevaluated my own beliefs. This is a good thing.
It's crazy to think one can ever know the entirety of God. I marvel at the human body. The eye is so fantastic and heals itself faster than any other part on us. Everything that inhabits this world, our planet, are designed magnificently. And then there is the universe.......
I think, if as a whole, mankind would have sought after answers from this planet instead of molesting it for greedy purposes we would be way ahead of what this planet has to offer in terms of medicine, healing, energy and much more.
Ok, thanks for listening. Peace mixed with Joy, Lynne
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Oct 29, 2014 - 01:29pm PT
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I studied Jesus extensively as a believer (8 years of Catholic school) and have rejected theistic religion wholesale, so there's one data point.
So did all six of my siblings, so there's 6 more.
Can we just drop the proscriptive God talk? "Oh, if you only had the right information...".
It's intellectually insulting for those of us who critically examined our decision to drop religion in a serious manner.
The whole 'intelligent design' thing has been debunked ad nauseum - fortunately in the courts so that it can no longer be forced on a child captive audience in our schools. The only folks who believe that now are those unfamiliar with the science that does that debunking.
As for the Pope, he has no business weighing in on scientific theories, nor does the Catholic Church. They're not scientists. What followers believe with regards to this scientific theory or that is the decision of the individual. The Pope should only speak for what scientific theories he himself believes in - as should we all.
What if the United States had an 'official theory' that everyone was required to believe in? All hell would break loose, yet the Pope proclaims what is true or not true in this regard for his followers and is applauded for it.
Rather than applauding, we should be appalled that it took this long for the Catholic Church to join the 19th century.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Sport climber
moving thru
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Oct 29, 2014 - 01:33pm PT
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Tvash, did you as a thinking, non biased individual, study the teachings of jesus or did the school you and your siblings went to present to you their curriculum? L.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Oct 29, 2014 - 01:36pm PT
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You've responded to my request with yet another round of down talking, Lynne.
Do that to others as you see fit.
Don't do it to me.
The idea that anyone would believe the fantastic claims of the Bible - eternal life, the resurrection, etc...based on a few scraps of contradictory, anonymously authored papyrus translated to a language Christ didn't speak and written decades after Christ's supposed death by people who could not have known him seems somewhat, how shall I put this, less than rigorous with regards to any requirement for credible evidence.
But believe what you will if it makes you feel better.
As for the moral teachings of Christ - the Golden Rule, etc - only action is required for its internalization.
No Christ needed.
I took the good from my religious training and skimmed off the Santa Claus stuff.
Accepting the world for what it is enables me to connect with it more intimately and honestly. It is all the more beautiful that it all happened by accident, and that there still much mystery about how that happened. In other words, the universe deserves better than to be explained away through a god that is so obviously a reflection of man's ego and fear.
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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Oct 29, 2014 - 01:47pm PT
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I studied Jesus extensively as a believer (8 years of Catholic school)
I'm not sure what your trying to say here but the way I understand the message that Jesus tried to impart to humanity is that you will not find God in the words or works of men. What I got from the study of Jesus as I have was that we all have equal access to god and that he is there to be found but we must make the effort to find him of our own free will and with the utmost sincerity. Perhaps you were looking in the wrong place or that you were not seeking the actual Jesus, but merely studying stories of his life from a source that has only a historical connection to him. Tvash, please understand that I have no intention to criticize your personal choices in life. I value your perspective. I am only trying to comment on an idea that seems noteworthy.
Peace out.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Oct 29, 2014 - 01:50pm PT
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As I mentioned, no Christ is needed to act upon a sound moral footing and attempt to make the world a better place.
If it was discovered that the Christ myth was just that - that Christ never actually existed at all but was invented after the fact, would that make any difference at all in your moral actions today?
No, it would not.
And I wonder how many of you 'see the actual Jesus' - whatever that might be, given the spurious nature of the sources upon which his life and works are based:
22 A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to Him, crying out, “Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is suffering terribly from demon-possession.”
23 Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to Him and urged Him, “Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us.”
24 He answered, “I was only sent to the lost sheep of Israel.”
25 The woman came and knelt before Him. “Lord, help me!” she said.
26 He replied, “It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to their dogs.”
27 “Yes, Lord,” she said, “but even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their master’s table.”
28 Then Jesus answered, “Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted.” And her daughter was healed from that very hour.
What an as#@&%e. This atheist would never treat a stranger in need like that. Just heal the kid, already, Jesus.
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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Oct 29, 2014 - 02:29pm PT
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And I wonder how many of you 'see the actual Jesus' - whatever that might be, given the spurious nature of the sources upon which his life and works are based:
So what I get from this statement is that you are still relying on what other people have to say about Jesus.
Mind you that I have no certainty in such matters, but I think that what jesus was trying to tell us was that the religious institutions of man are wholly inadequate to describe man's true relation with god. It was as true then as it is now. We have to think out of the box, and that means abandoning these old notions of god and the sources that have perpetuated them throughout our history.
O'K. so where does that leave us if we choose not to throw out the baby with the bathwater? Where do we find God? In a book? In nature? Out in the stars somewhere? Riding a donkey in Palestine? The one who claims to be his son says you will find him inside yourself. What does this mean? Does everyone find him there? Is he the same to all? What is he doing in there? Why does my brain hurt? Would he like to share a sandwich with me? Was that wine a little too much last night?
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Oct 29, 2014 - 02:33pm PT
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So...where do you get your information about Jesus, given that the only information we have available about him is from the Gospels?
Do you just make it up?
If so - why do you need Jesus at all if he's just your personal invention anyway?
Why is it necessary or desirable to find God at all?
I can tell you from personal experience that the world got no less wonderful without Him. More so, in fact.
I get very uncomfortable when I BS myself.
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Jingy
climber
Somewhere out there
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Oct 29, 2014 - 03:22pm PT
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Perhaps you were looking in the wrong place or that you were not seeking the actual Jesus, but merely studying stories of his life from a source that has only a historical connection to him.
 It's all the unbelievers fault no matter how you look at it with these religious type....
As if this were reason enough to leap into the believer column....
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Oct 29, 2014 - 03:44pm PT
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I know the feeling. When I first started meeting atheists in college, I just couldn't believe they couldn't believe.
It finally sunk in when a young woman told me that, no matter how much she wanted to believe that she'd see her only beloved brother in Heaven after he'd been killed in a rappelling accident, she just couldn't.
That painful honesty was the straw. Desire, not honesty, had been propping up my waning faith.
I turned, looked back at the Church, and thought: "Wow. What a brilliant scam. Hats off."
The Catholics aren't all bad, though. Sure, they systematically rape thousands of kids over many decades and cover it up at the highest levels of power, and deny poor women family planning services, basically condemning them to a life of poverty, but they also push for immigration rights and an end to the death penalty.
I actually had a very good experience in Catholic School and CYO camp. Unfortunately, some kids didn't. The founder of the camp I attended for 3 summers (Camp St. Michael) and 3 of his priest pals wound up going to prison for child molestation. They were literally running a Rape Camp. I had not a clue at the time.
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Oct 29, 2014 - 03:46pm PT
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"The things that we love tell us what we are."
Thomas Aquinas. 13th Century.
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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Oct 29, 2014 - 06:24pm PT
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I certainly do not have any answers, Like you, only questions. I'm not a religious type, ask anyone here that knows me. I just like to be able to make my own decisions on how to approach these things and anyone that tells me I'm wrong, based on their experience or thinking, doesn't really care what I think and just wants to be heard. Well, I'm listening and what I hear is that you have already decided that there is no god based on what someone else has told you. You took it on faith and you believed and even tested that belief. It didn't work. You gave up and said there is no god. Fine. I don't have a problem with that . You are completely normal and a nice person. I just think that there are many questions that I would still like to ask about what I think might have happened. I am just curious and willing to suspend any disbelief for a moment just to see where it might take me. Kinda like rock climbing.
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Jingy
climber
Somewhere out there
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[Click to View YouTube Video]
Because a little reality needs to be dropped into this fester sore of a thread
"...results like these do not belong on the resume of a supreme being!"
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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Tvash: I studied Jesus extensively as a believer (8 years of Catholic school) . . . .
Unfortunately, this doesn’t matter a wit. Nada. Means nothing at all. if that’s where you are looking, you are looking in the wrong place. If there was one thing to have gotten from the “What is Mind thread,” it is that. As Kant suggested, you are making a categorical error. Get into the proper domain, my friend.
There is a common thread, but you can’t find it with only one view. One view cannot reveal The All. Even a conceptual viewpoint should show you that.
It’s like when you see a stop sign. You don’t pay attention to the color or the letters. You see what it means for you to understand, and in almost all important ways, what you are seeing is irrelevant to the import.
DMT: "You're doing it wrong!"
It’s not sex. The doing is being. It’s not an activity, a goal, or an achievement. IT is. You can run around the world and look at everything there is to see and not see anything important.
. . . and I think you know what I’m talking about. How many times have you looked at things and not really seen them? Thousands? Millions? Always?
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Bushman
Social climber
The island of Tristan da Cunha
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Nacho: I'm a little concerned right now. About... your salvation and stuff. How come you have not been baptized?
Esqueleto: Because I never got around to it ok? I dunno why you always have to be judging me because I only believe in science.
(From the movie Nacho Libre, 2006)
The movie was pretty stupid, but I can't help the fact that I thought it was funnier than sh#t!
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Psilocyborg
climber
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MikeL, It's the snake that eats its own tail, or the chicken or the egg. Once the view comes full circle, there is nothing to see. Chop wood, carry water.
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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No amount of intellectualizing can come close to the experience of approaching spirit realities. It is the ultimate adventure and the birthright of humanity; but the choice is yours, as is the work that must be accomplished.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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One view cannot reveal The All.
Maybe that's what was so crucial in Jesus's timing? He saw that the world (the spiritual world) was moving in to many directions. So His pronouncement that "I am the only way", is the ONLY way you need..
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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Maybe that's what was so crucial in Jesus's timing? He saw that the world (the spiritual world) was moving in to many directions. So His pronouncement that "I am the only way", is the ONLY way you need..
Maybe not.
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Jingy
climber
Somewhere out there
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Everyday you are preaching.
You are as bad and worst then what you are against.
Total fool ......
Chimp, everyday you are preaching about how stupid everyone else is...
I am as weak and (redundancy edit) as any of your statements...
Thank you
Further review edit:
scrubbing bubbles
Oct 24, 2014 - 09:40pm PT
Supertopo has made this issue quite easy to understand:
Scientists are civilized and highly intelligent....while all religious people are ignorant, savage, and often toothless, inbred morons who practice incest with their daughters
No better words ever spoken!!!
Bwahahaha.... This is a refinement of thought so clear it needs to be mentioned again!
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