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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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What about taking an already morbidly obese kid to an all-you-can-eat buffet and then watching with a satisfied smile while he/she packs down another 5000 calories?
CPS on that one?
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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While in America, laws are designed to protect people from themselves.
And therein lies the problem. Parents and other responsible adults are supposed to have enough functional brain cells to recognize the danger in such a situation. There should indeed be liability in this incident, due to such obvious foolishness.
But the nanny-state actually makes people dumber! There is an increasing lack of a sense of personal responsibility in this society.
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johnboy
Trad climber
Can't get here from there
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There is an increasing lack of a sense of personal responsibility in this society.
And blaming that on laws that are inacted is quite a stretch.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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I think with this one perhaps we should just let darwin do his thing....
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TradEddie
Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
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I totally agree that all sorts of things could be done to improve gun safety. And I personally think that the range and the parents should be at least civilly held accountable for this incident.
Then do you agree that the Gun Industry's unique exemption from product liability lawsuits should be repealed? With immunity from lawsuits, why would they voluntarily do anything to improve safety, or limit use of their products by criminals?
The entire point of workers' comp is to limit the ability of employees or their estates to sue for 'accidents' in the workplace, so I imagine the widow will have very little recourse. Ironically, the family of the girl may have the best opportunity to sue the range, even though they were clearly partly responsible.
TE
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Product liability?
How was the Uzi defective? It went "bang-bang-bang..." when the trigger was pulled, just like it was supposed to.
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TradEddie
Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
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I wasn't mentioning product liability in relation to this case, just gun safety in general.
I'm no fan of the laws, but I certainly don't see why one product gets a special legal exemption. Product liability can apply when there is a failure to warn about non-obvious dangers. For any other product where three adults apparently failed to see any danger and yet one got killed due to the product, a lawsuit would be possible.
TE
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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What would be the difference if dad hooked up the 9YO with a chainsaw or a power mower and they killed themselves or someone else?
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bergbryce
climber
East Bay, CA
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Fyi, most of the Autobahn has controlled speeds. It's only when you get to those few remaining stretches out in the country, not on major inter-city thouroughfares that you actually find 30 or 40 kilometer long sections that are really speed limit free. Get your arse out of the left lane in these zones.
This is a case of very poor decision making that was abetted by a very strange and potentially deadly obsession that exists in our country.
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TradEddie
Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
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What would be the difference if dad hooked up the 9YO with a chainsaw or a power mower and they killed themselves or someone else?
The legal difference is that you can sue the mower maker for your stupidity, but thanks to GWB, not gun makers.
TE
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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"What would be the difference if dad hooked up the 9YO with a chainsaw or a power mower and they killed themselves or someone else?"
Dunno...why don't you post up a link to such an example, and we'll discuss?
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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The legal difference is that you can sue the mower maker for your stupidity, but thanks to GWB, not gun makers.
I don't think that any manufacturer should be exempt from litigation. I also don't think that oil companies should get subsidies and special tax breaks. I feel the same about tobacco companies.
Is your idea that it's a GOOD thing to have such an irresponsible society that we can sue a company for our own stupidity? And exactly how should an Israeli company be liable in this particular incident. Exactly what product liability suit would be legit here?
So, sure, no exemptions! But let's also have sane courts that will simply toss out irresponsible suits!
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Degaine
climber
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1) Regarding drivers in Western Europe
*Someone showed the stats and seems to know Germany so I won't add anything
*Stats for France are similar. Why are the less accidents and why are they better drivers? Simple: much better training (driver's ed), a much more difficult exam to obtain your license (written and in the car), a relatively objective points system for losing your license that government applies stringently. In France the radars fixed (and automated), so no negotiation with a Police Officer. In addition to filling government coffers, speeding has decreased overall in the last 10 years and so have fatalities (especially motorway fatalities).
*All in all in my experience in countries like Germany, France, Switzerland, Italy (Northern), is that people in general are much more aware of the space their car takes up, and are much better at handling theirs cars. It's not just a function of cars being smaller on average, since I've seen bus drivers parallel park with laser-like precision.
2) Madbolter wrote:
Is your idea that it's a GOOD thing to have such an irresponsible society that we can sue a company for our own stupidity? And exactly how should an Israeli company be liable in this particular incident. Exactly what product liability suit would be legit here?
a) Honestly, in the case with the Uzi, I don't see how holding the company liable would work. Perhaps a law (or even just shooting range rules) similar to the amusement park "if you're not this tall you can't ride" might be the appropriate response, or maybe simply insurance companies now won't cover a shooting range if they don't have rules that limit what 9 year olds can do. That written, in the case of such a dangerous weapon, I think it should be all too easy for parents to be extra careful. I shot hand guns and rifles as a young kid (at targets and cans) and was taught so well as how to handle a weapon safely that my parents had to take me aside and tell me that it was okay to point a squirt gun at someone and that it didn't need a safety.
b) The day will come about at some point where manufacturers will be held liable for their guns getting into the hands of those who did not purchase them legally. The gun manufacturers are all too happy to see a rise in demand in their weapons regardless of whose hands they end up in. Similar to illegal immigration: as soon as the US government starts cracking down heavily on ConAgra, Tyson, etc., then there will be serious immigration reform, until then all the big companies who are making money hand over fist off of the current system are all to happy to keep it that way.
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Degaine
climber
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Thanks for the link krahmes, f'ing hilarious!
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TradEddie
Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
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b) The day will come about at some point where manufacturers will be held liable for their guns getting into the hands of those who did not purchase them legally.
That was the specific reason why the 2005 law exempting gun manufacturers from liability was passed, so without a repeal of that law, it won't happen. A string of increasingly successful lawsuits threatened to hold manufacturers liable for failing to take steps to reduce diversion of their products. The manufacturers went to their friends in congress and we got the The Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protection_of_Lawful_Commerce_in_Arms_Act
I do correct my previous statements, gun makers can still be held liable for defective products etc.m only the willful negligence they have shown in the distribution of their products is immune from liability.
TE
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Still looking for an example, TGT?
Good luck with that.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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That cartoon made my rainy day Crankster!
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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City types are clearly the most unknowing of guns.....clearly, not a bad thing. Guns have a certain application but, in their overall societal effect, they are a net negative. I have more practical experience with an Uzi than anyone on this forum and I can't think of a good argument for their continued existence.
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