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hobo_dan
Social climber
Minnesota
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Sep 15, 2014 - 06:15pm PT
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I am talking about the needles- obviously you can stitch the tower.
The Needles: I know it's all against the history of the area. I get all that. But the reason nobody stops to climb in the Needles is it's not worth the risk--maybe they knock down a route or two but then they never, ever come back- sort of happy that they got out of town with only a couple scraped knees and some gobed out hands.
I think somebody in the future is going to wake up one day and realize that all the anti-bolt guys are dead or gone. The coast is clear- And then they'll start to get it on and you'll actually have a climbing scene, and visitors, and new energy.
But whatever, I don't really have a dog in this fight- I'm just talking about what I've seen and why I think the Needles don't reach the cool potential they could have. I'm braced for the purists who are going to beat their breast and tell me to deal with it-and go somewhere else, that's all good, but they're still not going to have any visitors.
And maybe that's OK- there are a lot of places that don't have the ethic of the Needles. But there is a reason Rifle is popular- and it aint the location- it's that people want to go somewhere and have fun.
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jgill
Boulder climber
Colorado
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Sep 15, 2014 - 06:19pm PT
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But the reason nobody stops to climb in the Needles is it's not worth the risk--
There is that. It can be a spooky place, even with all the climbs that are protectable. A gauntlet of nubbins - some none too trustworthy - intimidates.
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hobo_dan
Social climber
Minnesota
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Sep 15, 2014 - 06:35pm PT
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A story related to me: Four guys are up on an easy route- about 5.6 standard run out fare- first three guys roll it, all of them stop to stand on this giant crystal 80 feet up, fourth man through, steps on the crystal and it snaps off clean- no warning. Good thing for the belay.
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 16, 2014 - 09:30am PT
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Dan I would have to disagree with you on a lot of what you said above. Starting with assuming everyone wants more people to be around here. There are a lot of ground up routes that are going up in traditional style. Most abovew my head, but I don't do many routes more than once and am still doing routes I have not done in the needles that are well protected. I am far from bold, but sometimes you have to get away and look around to find them. I even occasionally put up a new route. I most often climb with my 13 year old son and so much moderate good terain out there that many of the good crack routes see little traffic. Good splitter on the right.This one looks good and I am not sure its been done.Good gear on this one and 300ft long to one of the best summits.Many good cracks in this area. Many with bolted belays and everything.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Sep 16, 2014 - 04:34pm PT
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A quote from the introduction to the Rifle guidebook:
Ah, but now I’m just repeating the same old myths and tropes of American climbing’s great enduring narrative, in which Rifle appears as the quintessential sport-climbing “scene” replete with choss, crowds, babies, beta, alpha dogs, submen, belay slaves, wobblers, tick marks, and more elitist wankers than you’d find at an Ayn Rand convention.
And, at times, it’s not an exaggeration to say that that scene still exists. Perhaps it always will.
And Hobo Dan thinks that importing this to the Needles, an area characterized by mystery, an area characterized by the Conn's elfish joy of discovery, would somehow be a good thing, an improvement, a result to be desired?
Robbins said that sport climbing is the child that want to eat its mother, and this is an example of that phenomenon. Folks from one discipline want to impose their values and perspectives on another genre, adapt it to to their personal definition of "fun," and, in the process destroy the opportunity for experiences that aren't part of their personal approach to climbing.
We are not speaking of developing new areas here, the issues there are different. We are speaking of retro-bolting a trad area with a nearly 80-year history so that it satisfies the needs of one particular type of climber, one who can, by they way, drive a few minutes to Rushmore and avail himself of 760 routes, mostly bolted sport climbs, on the same type of formations and the same rock. But no, even with a lifetime of bolted routes literally around the corner, somehow the presence of offensive trad routes, some but by nowhere near all of which are runout, is a festering sore that has to be lanced to service one particular definition of climbing and one particular concept of a "fun" climbing scene.
There's plenty of sport climbing in the Black Hills for those who want it, and there are plenty of adequately protected trad climbs in Custer State Park as well. If the region isn't more popular with climbers, it has nothing to do with the purportedly forbidding nature of a few climbs in Custer State Park. A far more plausible explanation is that location is out of the way and, for a host of geographic and economic reasons, doesn't support a big local climbing population.
That said, on the extremely slim chance that Hobo Dan might be right and all that is keeping the Needles from being a super-popular destination is a few bolts on a few climbs, I'd say fer god's sake leave things be. Not everyone loves climbing in an urban crowd scene. Some folks enjoy a little solitude, a bit of uncertainty, and a sense of making their own way. (That used to describe almost the entire climbing population, but no more.) Rather than try to make the Needles more like a whole batch of crowded venues, why wouldn't we actively try to keep it as it is, a bit out of the way, not for everyone, perhaps an acquired taste, unique in a climbing world becoming ever more homogeneous?
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johnboy
Trad climber
Can't get here from there
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Sep 16, 2014 - 05:15pm PT
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^^^^
Thank you Richard.
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WyoRockMan
climber
Flank of the Big Horns
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Sep 16, 2014 - 06:18pm PT
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A hearty round of applause for rgold's reply.
But the reason nobody stops to climb in the Needles is it's not worth the risk--maybe they knock down a route or two but then they never, ever come back-
Perhaps applicable to your experience, but wholly untrue for many. I (and many friends) make the trip at least a couple times a year to enjoy the mystique, the lack of crowds, and maybe just maybe push ourselves out of our comfort zones. A way to check our egos perhaps. I've been enthralled with the "ethic" ever since I belayed my partner on Hairy Pin and got a least a second hand appreciation of superior mental control and confidence. It is likely that I will never lead the route, I simply haven't earned the privilege and that is ok.
But there is a reason Rifle is popular- and it aint the location- it's that people want to go somewhere and have fun.
And the same can be said for Custer State Park, the climbing IS fun. Just like tastes in beverages vary, the thought of going to Rifle is unappealing to me on many levels, but I'm glad many enjoy it.
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 16, 2014 - 06:34pm PT
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The Last Laugh 10d Devils Tower.Current flag flying over Devils Tower Trading Post.
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hobo_dan
Social climber
Minnesota
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Sep 16, 2014 - 07:18pm PT
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Rgold I thought that was a good response
I'll turn the volume down a little- not really interested in shouting. Needles as they are will lead to injuries and worse IMO. I can think of one broken back and one set of shattered ankles from people that I know. With that in mind I think it will stay a place that is not visited often other than by people who live near by.
I suspect that given a choice between the Black Hills and a place that is safer, more people will choose a safer alternative. But I've been nothing but wrong my entire life and i see no reason that that is going to change anytime soon.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Sep 16, 2014 - 07:41pm PT
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Thanks Dan. You didn't have to say that, so it is appreciated. I'll try not to shout, but might not end up succeeding.
I suspect that given a choice between the Black Hills and a place that is safer, more people will choose a safer alternative.
You say "Black Hills" when you mean a subset of climbs in Custer State Park. And it would be more appropriate to say "better protected" rather than "safer." Gyms and sport-climbing areas have their own collection of broken backs, shattered ankles, and worse. The protection is presumably fine, but other aspects of that genre of climbing combine to make it "unsafe" often enough.
Moreover, your idea of "safety" is an idea external to the climber that is, of course, a feature of bolted climbs---someone else has engineered the route for the safety of the participants. In trad climbing, safety is not a feature engineered into the climb, it is something climbers bring in various degrees to the situation nature dictated, and so it is a feature of the climber, not the climb, and not the climbing area.
In any case, you may well be right, given what "more people" means in the context of modern climbing. The real question is, if you are right, is this a situation that needs to be "fixed?" And if a significant group of climbers, perhaps no longer the majority, but significant nonetheless, appreciates and strives for the challenges presented by trad climbing, which always (I'd say as a defining ingredient) involve risk, is it right and appropriate---given the vast array of sport climbing opportunities available world-wide---is it right and appropriate to kill off venues where this other genre flourishes?
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 16, 2014 - 08:32pm PT
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Look on mountain project and you will see a lot of climbs are going in and if you are waiting for the old guard to die off you will be interested to know that most of the people putting up ground up routes are in the early 20 to mid thirties. Many are local and many are strong as hell. Also many have good gear and reasonable runouts.
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 17, 2014 - 10:46am PT
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Here is some quite overhanging bolted sport climbing from Spearfish Canyon that may be what you are looking for Dan. I think a lot of people feel the way you do, but once they get out and see that there is so much they can do if they just swallow their pride a little they can really see how much is available in the Needles to them. Hippie Hole
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johnboy
Trad climber
Can't get here from there
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Sep 17, 2014 - 11:56am PT
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^^^^
Wow, Battle Creek Falls, haven't been there since the sixties.
Wanted to test one for size and such before I post up a bunch.
A little bit of ice is nice.
Bunch of Elk
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 17, 2014 - 02:29pm PT
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Nice elk shot johnboy. A few shots from high in Spearfish on the Rim Rock Trails.
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hobo_dan
Social climber
Minnesota
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Sep 17, 2014 - 03:14pm PT
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Believe it or not- I've never really been sport climbing. Wasn't really why I started climbing. Most of my climbs were crack climbs- I have climbed at the City of Rocks if that is a sport area and I liked the climbing there a lot!
Like so much talk, it really doesn't matter what is said, rather what is actually happening is what matters.
Sounds like the Needles are firing on all cylinders and the place is going gang busters. Good on that.
Can't argue with saving a few places to keep them special.
So for discussion sake: What happens if someone puts in a well protected and bolted route in the ten pins area? From the bottom up? On lead? Are they tarred and feathered? Is it welcomed? Is it chopped? Can you have a route like that in the Needles? Sort of like Trojan D but with more bolts? Or is the old ethic what controls the future creativity of climbers? Would this new route insult the Thimble? SuperPin? Herb and Jan?
Can you have a route that requires skill but does not have groundfall potential? Must it be run out?
I'll make a prediction- I think it would immediately become a popular route.
My question is can the area exist side by side with new and old routes? Or is it predetermined that only the Bold are allowed to put in the new?
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johnboy
Trad climber
Can't get here from there
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Sep 17, 2014 - 04:18pm PT
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Bear Butte behind Sturgis
These tracks weren't here 10 minutes before when we came through.
You never know what you'll see
Doesn't matter what day of the year, that water is ice cold.
My kind of day.
What's left of Flag Mt. lookout
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johnboy
Trad climber
Can't get here from there
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Sep 17, 2014 - 04:29pm PT
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Can you have a route that requires skill but does not have groundfall potential? Must it be run out?
Yes you can have a route like that and not runout, without bolts. There are plenty of them that leave the level of protection to each passing party.
As to your other couple dozen questions, a long time back we made agreements to not bolt up the Sylvan/Needles/Cathedral Spires area. It's not legal or etched in stone and some bolts have been placed, some have been chopped too.
Do you respect the locals ethics or not?
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Sep 17, 2014 - 04:51pm PT
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So for discussion sake: What happens if someone puts in a well protected and bolted route in the ten pins area? From the bottom up? On lead? Are they tarred and feathered? Is it welcomed? Is it chopped? Can you have a route like that in the Needles?
I can't tell you what the current "ethics" are. (I hate that term, there is nothing about bolting that is or is not ethical.) But BITD, if you started at the bottom and placed bolts from stances, then how many bolts would not have been an issue; there was no requirement (as you might find in, say Dresden) that there should only be a certain minimum amount of drilled protection on any single pitch. (That said, I think there were subjective limits---someone who placed a bolt every ten feet on a 5.0 slab would find them gone the next day.)
By the way, what constituted a stance turned out to be in some cases pretty surprising. I remember one route in which you most definitely could not let go with both hands, but there was a crystal large enough to hang on with one hand while holding the drill and hammering with the free hand. I think Dingus McGee might have been responsible for that amazing feat.
As routes got steeper and drilling from no-hands stances became impossible, it seemed to fit within the constrictions of the trad approach to drill from hooks. Once again, if you found enough hook placements to make for a well-protected route, then I don't think there would be any serious protests about the bolting.
The point is that nature determines not only the climbing moves but also the opportunities for protection. If nature dictates runouts, then it is up to the climber to decide whether or not they want that challenge. If nature allows for plentiful protection, then so be it and you have a well-protected route.
What I think was agreed-to in the Needles and elsewhere is that protection would not be placed on rappel, and the climb would not be aided in a conventional way in order to leave protection points behind. To some extent, the goal was to preserve as much as possible the uncertainty of a first ascent. All this is getting quainter and quainter nowadays when a truly hard route has to be rehearsed over and over before it can be redpointed, but that's how we used to do things.
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 17, 2014 - 05:54pm PT
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Ground up with no fixed gear would be Ed's best style, but I think most stuff now a days is exactly what rgold said is happening. Bolting with books when needed but trying to place more bolts than the old days as they want to see their routes be repeated. I know several 5.11 routes have been put up on the big side of Outer Outlet have been put in. I think they are PG, but not death routes.
Here is a link to a new route on Outer Outlet from MP. http://www.mountainproject.com/v/stainless-steel-shield-/108323886
I think there has been a push to pit routes up on the biggest most spectacular of faces not just on spires.
Dan I would love to show you around to some of the good cracks/we'll protected routes I know. Surprisingly some of the best cracks are around Rushmore. Also many of the rap bolted routes at Rushmore were retro bolted with many more bolts either with permission or by the first ascetic it's themselves.
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jgill
Boulder climber
Colorado
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Sep 17, 2014 - 08:09pm PT
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but there was a crystal large enough to hang on with one hand while holding the drill and hammering with the free hand
That sounds like a circus trick, Rich. How do you get started?
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