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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Aug 13, 2014 - 11:55am PT
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Paul, I don't think there's a one-size-fits-all solution, or even collection of solutions, but I suspect there are some people (but not all) for whom faith in God would be the ultimate coping mechanism that gives them the serenity and strength to deal with traumatic histories. The change of reference to think of something bigger than ourselves, to see our personal problems in a bigger context and to see our aggressors as victims in some larger scale scenario creates space for forgiveness that is healing. Whatever can dissipate the accumulation of negative energy, to bleed it to ground, rather than passing it to another or letting it fester inside....
Some of the people for whom God is not the answer are people who have psychic traumas that are intertwined with religion (i.e. identifying past aggressors with religion), or people who have intellectual objections to tenets of the religion. I fall into the latter camp, and have more or less accepted a hodge-podge religious construction that embraces most of the moral things in organized religion, and a belief in a "higher power" that can be a crutch during times when my coping skills are strained, but without the exclusivity or intention to convert people or create explicit histories or dogmatic beliefs.
In a way, I'm a schizo atheist who embraces religion when I find it convenient. And I'm fine with that.
All that said, I respect what micronut is doing here. He is being a beacon of light for folks who have lost their way. It's not a pushy order or demand for folks to do things his way. It's not a threat. It's a simple statement that if you are lost, here is a way to try. How can anyone find fault with that?
Any attempts at fault-finding would seem to be echoes of the fault-finder's own unresolved emotional issues. Or perhaps the intellectual defense against losing more people to a "slippery slope." It is scary when our political system is affected by people voting in block for a purportedly Christian philosophy when this is used as a wedge issue to push through political agendas that are not Christian.
Apparently I lack focus today. Can't decide which point I want to emphasize!
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Aug 13, 2014 - 11:59am PT
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Crusades, Jim Jones, Jim Crow, Civil rights in the south, Clinic/doctor killings, inquisitions, etc.
A lot of sketch has been performed in Jesus good name.
I say let's talk about anything that moves the conversation forward.
I think that's a fair response, but so is "Not everyone who calls me Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but those who do my Father's will . . ." Invoking Jesus's name is not a magical incantation transforming evil to good
Again, I see Micronut's offer as one to those who want it. If someone wants to have an honest discussion about why they don't want it (as opposed to gratuitous insults), is that not a good thing?
John
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Aug 13, 2014 - 12:02pm PT
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A third of our great nation self identifies as Born Again - a movement which is almost solely responsible for a well concerted and funded campaign against gay and women's rights. It is also a movement which bares the lion's share of responsibility for LGB teen suicides:
Suicide is the 2nd leading cause of death among young people ages 10 to 24.
LGB youth are 4 times more likely, and questioning youth are 3 times more likely, to attempt suicide as their straight peers.
LGB youth who come from highly rejecting families are 8.4 times as likely to have attempted suicide as LGB peers who reported no or low levels of family rejection.
It's not too difficult to figure out which faith openly rejects those born LGB as going against God's will.
Any thread involving suicide and Christianity is remiss without openly discussing this terrible issue. I realize that many Christians are moderate and do not subscribe to such damaging bigotry - but the Born Again movement openly and proudly does.
I invite any Born Again Christian to address this issue here. That some Christians here 'don't want to talk about it' is telling.
Please prove me wrong.
I haven't even mentioned the Catholic Church's many decades long child rape problem and cover up - which continues to this day. Sadly, in recent years the Catholic church has chosen to partner with the Born Again Movement in its campaign against gays and women. Undoubtedly another source of lifelong human misery for many - including four classmates of mine.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Aug 13, 2014 - 12:08pm PT
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Tvash,
Sounds like you agree with Cragman and Anderson, who say suicide is a selfish decision, based in conscious thought, and not necessarily the result of the physical disease of depression.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Aug 13, 2014 - 12:13pm PT
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I wouldn't know what, specifically, you're referring to, but it doesn't matter.
My posts speak for themselves. They are 180 degrees the opposite of what you just posted. I would invite you to re-read them, then comment on any specific points I've made you disagree with, and why.
Any salient discussion of suicide, particularly youth suicide, that omits the negative effects of fundamentalist religion in America is dancing around an 800 lb gorilla.
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Aug 13, 2014 - 12:14pm PT
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Invoking Jesus's name is not a magical incantation transforming evil to good
No kidding!
I agree about Micro's motives, all good.
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Aug 13, 2014 - 12:16pm PT
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I'd like to thank Tobia, Big Mike and Cat t for speaking with trustbuilding insight and an amazing clearity of mind on the subject of depression - on this and on other threads...
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micronut
Trad climber
Fresno/Clovis, ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 13, 2014 - 12:22pm PT
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Paul,
Good questions there. First off, "active in church" does not necessarily mean somebody has had a true spiritual transformation, the hallmark of a true Christian. The mark of a true Christian is that they have come to the reality that they cannot go it alone, that they are inherently in need of a savior. They surrender their entire self to the full embrace of a loving God who alone has the means to rectify their brokenness.
This is real salvation. The old self dies. A new self is born. Be it at a young age or middle age or late in ones days. The true Christian realizes that Christ and the good news in the gospel can sustain him or her. This alone is sufficient. It becomes sufficient. It changes everything. everything.
It healed the broken heart of my wife when she was in college. In need of mending from foul and evil things done to her by hurtful and evil people. She is a new creation and no slave to the hurt that was once so profound as an adult.
It has healed liars and thieves and murderers. I personally know a "born again" gang member who was a murderer. The weight he carried as a young man was immense. He no longer lives as a murderer, but he will always deal with the consequences of his actions. His heart is the heart of a free man and he lives thusly. He is a new creation.
This is real and I've seen it over and over in my life.
Secondly. Christians need doctors too. There are times, after a sound diagnosis, that medication is called for. I understand chemistry well, and dopamine, serotonin and others at the neurotransmitter level are powerful and real players in this but it seems somewhat rare for the Christian living a changed life committed to leaning on God's sustaining power to change and heal. I believe in the power of medicine and therapy, but a Christian's first and primary dependence is on the Lord and his promises. I've personally known so many people who have found little help in therapy and medicine, only to have and live a changed life in the Lord. It has been profound to watch first hand.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Aug 13, 2014 - 12:22pm PT
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LGB youth are 4 times more likely, and questioning youth are 3 times more likely, to attempt suicide as their straight peers.
LGB youth who come from highly rejecting families are 8.4 times as likely to have attempted suicide as LGB peers who reported no or low levels of family rejection.
It's not too difficult to figure out which faith openly rejects those born LGB as going against God's will.
This strikes me as a bit of thread drift, to say the least, but I am curious about the source of those statements, Tvash, specifically:
Who determined who was "born LGB?"
Were these results from self-selected samples?
I don't doubt the truth of what you say, because common experience predicts that those rejected by their families would have significantly lower self-worth than those accepted. I just want the references because the statements seem rather too general to me.
John
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Aug 13, 2014 - 12:31pm PT
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Hi John,
I won't get into a discussion about whether people are born LGB or not, you and I both know that won't be productive for this forum. Here's the source of those statistics:
http://www.thetrevorproject.org/pages/facts-about-suicide
This is a discussion of how Christianity can help prevent suicide. It's a disingenuous one on its face unless one also includes how Christianity can and does make this problem worse in some cases.
I'd say that's pretty relevant, if a truly honest and open discussion is the goal, here.
Again, I invite any Born Again Christian address this issue directly.
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PAUL SOUZA
Trad climber
Central Valley, CA
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Aug 13, 2014 - 12:43pm PT
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Scott,
Remember the local pastor who off'd himself several years ago? Would you say that he, a pastor, had not yet surrendered himself to the Lord?
To clarify my previous comment of "Active in the church," I don't know the degree to which they would describe the depth of their faith, but all I can say is that their faith is very important to them.
Also, I have some "born agains" in my extended family and they are some of the most neurotic people I have ever met. They, in fact, have "surrendered" themselves completely to the Lord. In my experience, faith can become a cover, also known clinically as a "reaction formation." NOT all born agains, but many of those who I have met.
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Aug 13, 2014 - 12:44pm PT
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true Christian.
Ouch.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
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Aug 13, 2014 - 12:49pm PT
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MN,
Amen. Yeshua is the way. He's the answer. He's our hope. He's our salvation. He's our joy. Life will be harder at times when you ask him into your life and he changes you from within, because the world hates G-d. But we have great promises now in this life and ahead of us. I look forward to the Millennium. But we have work to do. Tikkun Olam.
Carrie Fischer, Robin's close friend has a real deep insight into RW and depression ...
https://www.yahoo.com/movies/carrie-fisher-on-robin-williams-he-was-the-opposite-94639993537.html
RW seems to have known about Yeshua, Jesus. There is hope. I would like to see him again. I'm sure his comic genius is from G-d. All gifts are, whether we know G-d or not. The Good Book says he gives out gifts with no respect of persons and "All good things are from God (James 1:17)." RW clearly had the gift of humor and to make us laugh, and deep caring and empathy for others. Just listen to his close friends talk about him. From my other post ...
Aug 12, 2014 - 02:30pm PT
I will miss you on this side of eternity Robin. Man did you make me laugh. I loved Mork and Mindy and the climbing shoes. You had an incredible gift. Only G-d knows you're true suffering. I find comfort in the fact that you did know Yeshua, Jesus, in some way. I will see you again.
He was a practicing Episcopalian ...
http://community.sparknotes.com/2011/06/27/why-im-episcopalian-and-proud-of-it
Although I don't agree with all their theology I do agree with some of it.
Suicide is not the unforgivable sin. But like someone attested to it hurts forever those who are left behind. But someone in a place so dark to do so is not in their right mind. HaShem forgives, especially if you are under the grace of Yeshua HaMashiach.
http://christianity.about.com/od/whatdoesthebiblesay/a/Bible-Suicide.htm
I know. My mother took her life and she loved Jesus. She was in a very dark place and under a lot of medication that doctors felt would help her. Bovine Dung to their advice. My mother wasn't herself. She was in desperate depression. I know I'll see my mother again.
Rest Robin and keep Heaven laughing.
By the way did Yeshua, Jesus ever laugh? Of course. Even though he was Emmanuel, G-d with us, he was human. Humans love to laugh. We are made in his image. We love to laugh so therefore G-d laughs too. G-d has an incredible sense of humor. Read the Bible. Many stories are filled with humor and irony, especially considering his dealings with man. Sometimes we think we know it all and we know squat. G-d humbles us often to put us in our place and to prove to us who's really in control. We just have to listen, accept, and shape up. One of my favorite stories is the ass (donkey) talking to the priest after the priest beat the donkey for not moving, and then the donkey telling him he just saved his life by not moving so why would you beat me? Lol.
Question: "Did Jesus ever laugh?" Yep!
http://www.gotquestions.org/did-Jesus-ever-laugh.html
Question: "Does God have a sense of humor?" He sure does!
http://www.gotquestions.org/God-humor.html
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Aug 13, 2014 - 12:49pm PT
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I think that term is the crux of why these discussions are so unproductive.
Pun intended?
Aug 13, 2014 - 12:31pm PT
Hi John,
I won't get into a discussion about whether people are born LGB or not, you and I both know that won't be productive for this forum. Here's the source of those statistics:
http://www.thetrevorproject.org/pages/facts-about-suicide
This is a discussion of how Christianity can help prevent suicide. It's a disingenuous one on its face unless one also includes how Christianity can and does make this problem worse in some cases.
I'd say that's pretty relevant, if a truly honest and open discussion is the goal, here.
Agree, Tvash. I intended my reference to "thread drift" to apply to my request, not your question. I am off to look at your source. Thanks.
John
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Jawon
climber
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Aug 13, 2014 - 12:52pm PT
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Let's not go there in an online forum.
Jawon, why not? It's a huge part of the equation isn't it?
Crusades, Jim Jones, Jim Crow, Civil rights in the south, Clinic/doctor killings, inquisitions, etc.
A lot of sketch has been performed in Jesus good name.
I say let's talk about anything that moves the conversation forward.
Survival, I'm saying let's not go there because it's thread drift but also because I don't think on online forum is a conducive medium for these heavy discussions. I don't mean to sound aloof, but I try not to engage in these religious discussions unless I'm able to have a personal, face-to-face relationship (I'm in Long Beach CA if anyone is interested). It's just too hard to express THE most important decision of one's life in an anonymous series of written posts.
So I will respectfully lurk from the sidelines while those who truly have useful info about the intersection of depression and faith pound this out. Of course, if anyone keeps spouting silly nonsense, I may just have to jump back in :)
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Aug 13, 2014 - 12:56pm PT
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Moderate Christianity, including many Catholic parishes, accept the validity of other religious, and non-religious, viewpoints.
The Born Again and other fundamentalist Christian sects proudly and openly do not - they are exclusive and therefore bigoted at their core. You're 'saved or not'.
That is a morally bankrupt position that is, on its face, the antithesis of any egalitarian respect for human rights. It's a blue screen of death in that regard. This is a movement which cries out for respect - but doesn't afford it to others.
Unfortunately, such movements use their theology of exclusivity to attack the rights of large groups - gays and women most particularly - wholesale in the public policy arena.
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micronut
Trad climber
Fresno/Clovis, ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 13, 2014 - 12:58pm PT
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Tvash, I'm no moderate Christian. I'm all in. And I'd love to speak on your questions about depression, suicide and LGBT another time. I'm in the middle of a busy work day and gotta git off the computer!
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limpingcrab
Trad climber
the middle of CA
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Aug 13, 2014 - 01:27pm PT
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Again, I invite any Born Again Christian address this issue directly.
Tvash, I'm all in as well and I think your statistics are probably accurate and definitely sad.
We're called to love everyone, no ifs ands or buts. Hearing about families neglecting their LGBT children hurts and I do not believe it is biblical. I remember my parents every day telling me that there is nothing I can do or say that would make them love me any less.
I don't think those stories, or the crusades, etc. are grounds to throw out the teachings of Jesus. I know and work with plenty of scientists who are d-bags but I still believe science is a great tool, though it has also been used for evil.
Just because someone struggles with a sin does not make them a bad person, and the blood of Jesus can cover all sins so he sees them no more. I love stealing things because it's fun but I know it's wrong so I don't act on it. I do not resent God for creating me with a gift and desire for theft. Homosexuality, promiscuity, drunkenness, anger, etc...
We're messed up because we're born with sinful nature, that doesn't make the teaching of Jesus and the bible messed up, it makes them our saving grace and path to freedom.
Please don't judge Christ by Christians as I'm pretty sure we don't judge climbing by climbers
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, CA
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Aug 13, 2014 - 01:41pm PT
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Religious believing is top-roping
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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Aug 13, 2014 - 01:44pm PT
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Belief in a higher power can be transformative for some but not all people. All I would add is that I have seen this work equally well for Buddhists, Hindus, and animists, not just Christians.
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