Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
Lost Arrow
Trad climber
The North Ridge of the San Fernando
|
|
|
Dec 30, 2007 - 12:33pm PT
|
Why are u folks listening to a Pete, that cat lives in Canada.
Why are we letting him rewrite Yosemite History!
Juan
|
|
'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
|
|
|
Dec 30, 2007 - 12:42pm PT
|
Like meeow, eh?
Imagine exposing a "truth" that has existed in the minds of Yosemite climbers for a quarter-century, only to now realize it is not what everyone thought.
|
|
Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
|
|
|
Dec 30, 2007 - 01:03pm PT
|
dood-
someone up thread stole your log-in and said they were through w/ th debate, kinda makes yo look a we bit silly to then keep debating, IMHO
|
|
MSmith
Big Wall climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
|
Dec 30, 2007 - 01:22pm PT
|
When someone refers to you directly, responding is expected regardless of whether you're just reading rather than advancing the debate.
|
|
Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
|
|
|
Dec 30, 2007 - 01:24pm PT
|
-or one can simply ignore obvious trolling...
|
|
MSmith
Big Wall climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
|
Dec 30, 2007 - 01:27pm PT
|
True
|
|
MSmith
Big Wall climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
|
Dec 30, 2007 - 02:16pm PT
|
"These ... jackasses have, for the past 25 years included me in their slander about shitting on their ropes"
Meaty, if you are referring to me, that assertion isn't true. I think that I speak for Richard also.
Cheers,
Mark
|
|
Mimi
climber
|
|
|
Dec 30, 2007 - 02:29pm PT
|
I know it's a drag to be falsely accused about most things, Meaty, but you should be honored to be included in that elite group.
MSmith, since you feel an obligation to respond to questions, how about these unrequieted gems:
1. How many hook placements had you ever stood on while on lead before leaving the ground on WOS?
2. Had you ever led a consensus-rated pitch harder than A2 and longer than a 100 feet prior to WOS?
3. Why do you guys consider the lefthand (Yaniro) variation leading up to belay 2 to be 'bogus'?
4. When you guys replaced the chopped anchors on the bottom of WOS after the poohfest, did either of you damage placements or choose to leave out any of the metalic anchors that were pulled?
|
|
MSmith
Big Wall climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
|
Dec 30, 2007 - 03:25pm PT
|
Mimi,
I got an email recently from a non-climbing friend who came across SuperTopo expecting to find a close-knit community. No shock that that’s not what he found. His email comment to me was, “It is good to see that across the internet asininity pervades each community, [that] there are constants in the universe.”
The last time I addressed you, as I recall, I told you that I don’t dialog with people who insist to call my friend(s) by slang terms for genitalia. That still stands. Should you decide to communicate as a decent human with Richard and I, then I’ll be happy to talk, assuming that you are willing and able to meaningfully answer our questions which have been outstanding for more than a year now on More “peace and love” from Mimi:
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=236000
|
|
the Fet
Knackered climber
A bivy sack in the secret campground
|
|
|
Dec 30, 2007 - 03:26pm PT
|
It is so obvious bogus judgements were made when WoS went up. Based on them being outsiders, applying double standards, mob menality, jealousy, a new type of line (that granted is not for everyone) etc.
Now some are so deeply invested in maintaining their anger and derision against the WoS guys, they keep grasping at straws to come up with stuff to hold against them. The supposed transgressions get less and less important, as the earlier ones are proved false.
The WoS guys were given a bum rap. No one inspected the climbing prior to condeming it, that's pretty much all you need to know to realize all the negativity is based on BS.
They got tons of crap from almost all corners and didn't give up. That's ballsy. They dug in their heels and repsonded to the cristisism as best they could, and are still doing it.
Now instead of recognizing that, certain folks are now looking at their motivations, experience, etc. to get anything that will help them maintain their belief that they were right and the Wos guys were wrong, very sad really.
They need to get some guts and some pride and looks at things objectively. Maybe they don't like the style of the climb, that's perfectly acceptable, but to disparage them with lies and think that you have ANY more right to climb in the Valley because you were a "local" (in a public park) is so very weak.
I, like many others, user to think the route was poor, since I had been told all the lies and BS, these threads helped me see the truth, and gain a lot of respect for Richard and Mark.
|
|
the Fet
Knackered climber
A bivy sack in the secret campground
|
|
|
Dec 30, 2007 - 03:29pm PT
|
That being said, there are some people that no matter how much evidence is presented to them will continue to hold onto their false beliefs. You have to cut your losses at some point.
|
|
Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
|
|
|
Dec 30, 2007 - 03:41pm PT
|
That being said, there are some people that no matter how much evidence is presented to them will continue to hold onto their false beliefs. You have to cut your losses at some point.
Hmmm - this sounds distinctly familiar, does it knott?
(thank God I never "cut my losses")
|
|
the Fet
Knackered climber
A bivy sack in the secret campground
|
|
|
Dec 30, 2007 - 03:42pm PT
|
One more point, Richard and Mark could have made things much easier on themselves and the community by repeating some more hard routes and establishing a reputation before doing an FA. Personally I don't think they were 'required' to, but in hindsight it would have been a much better way approach a spirited and highly defensive community.
If the community wasn't so protective climbing would not be what it is today as the traditional ethic needs constant defense. The line between protecting the resource and going overboard is inherently fuzzy.
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Dec 30, 2007 - 03:42pm PT
|
Mark- just answer the simple questions that you two have so studiously avoided. I have read all of you respective posts going all the way back.
Leaning on civility here is just another avoidance device. But you gents are slipperier than a couple of eels in 30 weight oil with regard to your skill and competence before undertaking WOS.
|
|
the Fet
Knackered climber
A bivy sack in the secret campground
|
|
|
Dec 30, 2007 - 03:45pm PT
|
HK, Yeah I guess 10,000 posts later we should all realize things aren't moving much at this point.
Or are you referring to something else?
|
|
Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
|
|
|
Dec 30, 2007 - 03:46pm PT
|
I just edited (added to) my one-line post above...
|
|
'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
|
|
|
Dec 30, 2007 - 04:12pm PT
|
The Fet,
That was the best summation of the whole thing I have ever read. Well done.
Steve,
Why does it matter what they climbed beforehand? I can tell you that from what I have observed, it's damn hard, well done, scary, dangerous, and sick. Somehow Mark and Richard used the negative energy of the locals, and channelled it into some sort of synergy they might otherwise not been able to achieve, cuz their route is unbelievable [to me]. I've climbed 33 routes on El Cap, including at least one of yours, and nothing I've seen comes close to the severity of WoS.
Incidentally, there are surely some of yours I wouldn't dare try, either!
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Dec 30, 2007 - 04:25pm PT
|
Pete- did you actually do all the moves while on top-rope or were you unable to figure it out?
|
|
'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
|
|
|
Dec 30, 2007 - 04:53pm PT
|
Gee, I guess I really should publish my mini-trip report, shouldn't I. I wrote a few emails and I'll copy and paste 'em in here.
I was able to do almost all of the hook moves on toprope - it took me five hours! - but as I recall, there were two or three I simply couldn't figure out, or get to work for me. I felt scared and insecure, most of my fear coming from the fact that I simply couldn't imagine actually leading the bloody thing. Steve, the moves are INSANE. Walk along the base of the slab with some little Leeper hooks and your aiders, and try traversing the base of the wall. You'll see the kind of sick stuff they used!
So you know how a lot of the time, even pitches that are A4 or harder can sometimes, if not often, be reasonable exercises? You figure if you take your time, and really get your pro good and do lots of bounce tests and use lots of screamers, if you blow it and fall you probably really won't go that far, or get hurt? Well, that just ain't so on WoS. You're going to fall for sure, and on the first pitch there are definitely plenty of ankle-breaker ledges to hit. That is a concern with me, having busted my ankle on the Ranch a few years ago.
I went back to the Ranch with Kate, figured out what I did wrong, and climbed the pitch - it seemed reasonable. I did, however, take the precaution of padding the ledge I hit the time before with sleeping pads and clothes and ledge flies and soft stuff! I have some funny pictures.
|
|
Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
|
|
|
Dec 30, 2007 - 05:07pm PT
|
re: "Why does it matter what they climbed beforehand?"
why do they need defending?
in particular, right after a climber w/ a certain amount of clout talks about avoidance of his unanswered questions and compares them to slippery eels, why would you come back and ask why HIS questions matter? they obviously matter to him, and there he is posting w/ his real name, so let him ask.
the question he asked was simple enough, was it not?
seriously pedro, your arguments FOR this route are equally valuable to those who argue AGAINST the route, i.e. if the only way through certain sick hooking sections is to occasionally chip on some level that can be rationalized or accepted by some people, than the only climber who will ever repeat it will be one who is willing to repaeat that behavior.
further, you miss the point IMO when you argue that mixing lots of sick hooking into the periodic (albeit spread out) drilled rivets and bolts and enhanced hook placements validates the line as being worthwhile or whatever. as i understand it, all of those holes, along with the total absence of natural protection, are in fact the complaint!
what if it were 5.6 free climbing (w/ no natural protection available) between the rivets and bolts and modified placements? would the climbing community at the time have ben more or less inclined to accept the line in that case?
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!