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NeverSurfaced
Trad climber
Someplace F*#ked!
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Wow, now Werner’s all riled up – this is getting ugly.
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Craig Shaw
Mountain climber
so portland maine
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HA HA, you guys are funny!!
Msmith........I wished I would have come across the gear you claim I did. Just to meet you. I have always posted a note at c4 when I find gear. Sorry only hangers and bolts, w/no markings.
Hey,
I never claimed to be a hard core waller. I just want to give a small persons look at it.
And to Nefarius You got my point Thanks
I'll go back into my mtn, since you have never heard of me, which is the way I like it.
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darod
Trad climber
South Side Billburg
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Werner, you have no balls, I don't care what a great clmber you are, or what a an amazing personality in the community you are, you have NO BALLS.
COWARD.
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NeverSurfaced
Trad climber
Someplace F*#ked!
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Darod, a bit harsh to say the least.
I can respect Richards quest for the truth and redemption, and I can equally respect Werners desire not to get dragged into something that he wasn’t involved in in the first place almost three decades ago. If he’s got nothing to do with it, why call him a coward for not getting involved. Besides, I think reputation alone dictates otherwise.
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dryfly
Trad climber
utah
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darod...You are a jackass..Are you implying that the man(WB) has no right to mind his own damn business? If everyone would have had his attitude in the first place, this never would have became the mess that it is .
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
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Good job Dryfly. There's an absolute truth: if everyone had minded their own business from the beginning none of this would have gone down. Unfortunately humankind has never been all that good at minding it's own business.
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand, Man.....
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 4, 2006 - 12:14am PT
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Hey WoS guys or whoever:
I just posted this over on the John Long Book thread for LEB.....
You can add more or fix it up over there. Just a nutshell version of the last 600+ posts. Probably inaccurate, but hey, I'm a prick, acerbic, sarcastic and Satan knows what else.... oh, and a Valley Boy......
from that thread:
These nutshell versions allways seem to get me in trouble:
Nutshell:
Yosemite Valley is filled with climbers. Some live there full time. Some visit. There is a hierarchy in place. The ones that live there full time are the top of the food chain.
El Cap is the God they and all visiting climbers worship. Dues must be paid, by putting in time and suffering on El Cap. Visitors are expected to bow down before El Cap and the Valley locals. Just the way it is. Think Surfing, my beach, my wave.
Newcomers to the Valley show up. They intend to climb El Cap via a new route. This in itself is audacious. No dues have been paid. They have also chosen what is believed to be a blank slab devoid of cracks. Valley locals think this is going to be a problem as blank walls need bolts and lots of them. Lots of bolts are frowned upon. The newcomers start the wall and are planning on being up there for about a month. This is viewed as too long and bad style. Light and fast is the ideal for most. They have 1200lbs of gear. Most parties have 100 or so.
Some locals decide to take matters into their own hands and remove these upstarts from the wall before they can damage the God known as El Cap. Somehow the locals get to the top of the newcomers ropes some 300ft up the wall and remove all the bolts they have placed and deposit all the newcomers gear at the base of the cliff and then take a shiit on top of the pile. Newcomers might have been out of town when this happened? Not sure... anyway....
Newcomers come back to find the pile of shiit and their route chopped. They will not be denied and start up again and then stay up there for some 39 days or so. Rumor is they drilled 1000's of bolts and left a giant trail of feces down the rock from their daily functions and tons of trash at the base. There were other accusations which I forget, mostly along the lines of damaging the rock or something. Valley spin doctors whip the story into a giant tempest that permeates all climbing media. Newcomers are now pariahs, and write a book on their exploits, yet no climbing magazine will touch them. All the editors were Valley locals.
Newcomers now need to prove that they are not just some goofballs and go and do one of the hardest routes on El Cap by normal means. Valley regulars monitor every step of the Newcomers... then they go to the Desert and blow the lid off another supposed super hard route and do it in good style. But, these guys are the Newcomers who ruined El Cap, so a malodorous smell follows them around and the style of the Desert route is called into action. Did they do it or did they debauch it like El Cap? They say no, others say yes. Proof on any of this is purely sujective.
Fuk... this nut shell is getting long... and there are many tangents I could go on to....
Fast forward 25 years... here on supertopo a witch hunt and air clearing starts. Most of the Valley locals involved are either dead, can't type, or are long forgotten. The Newcomers are fired up it seems for the entire 25 years. For the rest of us, it seemed to last a few weeks. In the fury, a few Supertopians decide to go and check this deflowered and ruined section of rock that the Newcomers destroyed. The supertopians decide to climb the thing. All is set to make the Newcomers look like the fools they are... except for the Supertopians can't really get off the ground on the route!!!! hahahaha-fukin-ha! It seems the route is in fact not a bolt ladder, has never been repeated by any other party, and just gave a swift kick in the pants to some "real" climbers.
So, the stink is the Newcomers have been dissed for 25 years, then in a Lazarus style whirlwind they discovered the internet, and started to try and clear their name.
That is where we are right now.
That should at least get you going.
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand, Man.....
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 4, 2006 - 12:25am PT
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Hey darod,
I'm super pissed about all the illegal drugs in this country and I think masturbation should be a crime. So, if you will, please provide all the names of everyone you have ever heard of doing drugs or masturbating. I would like to have a chat with them. A .txt file will be fine.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Right on Russ.
You know, I was pretty close to all of this, I've already posted some very straightforward stuff about the SAR meeting with Mark and Richard.
I think a lot about conflicts between people and I've undergone some study in mediation, so there is enthusiastic and relatively neutral interest for me here.
I've got some observations; nothing conclusive, but more in the line of expanding the understanding of how something like this has arisen: and more importantly how we might now choose to deal with this.
But look, Nefarius, darod, PTPP:
At times, you guys seem pretty set on swinging the wrecking ball back the other way and when I see this, I loose genuine interest.
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Jerry Dodrill
climber
Bodega, CA
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I've been avoiding this whole topic, but it finally sucked me in.
Richard said:
“There has recently been quite a bit of "self-policing" ire about fixed gear on Mt. Watkins, with many calling for dire consequences against the perpetrators. Yet the Mt. Watkins incident is NOTHING compared to what these guys have foisted off on the climbing community! Or are the endless and groundless attacks on two CLIMBERS of less importance than some junk on Mt. Watkins?”
Actually, yes. What happened to you guys sucked and was wrong. No questions there from me. And the bad guys pulled the wool over our eyes. But here’s why I think that today, junk on Mt. Watkins is more important.
The difference is that WoS was a personal attack on YOU by other climbers. It was not DONE to the whole climbing community. The legacy of the action, lies, slander, etc took on a life of its own, however ignorant, which unfortunately affected your reputations. Yes, it would be a nice ending if you guys were vindicated, but it's a personal matter for you to clear up directly, not as a public affair (edited out the witchhunt reference). At the time, the NPS policy makers probably had little interest in whether you respected the proper deities in Camp 4 or had done other routes on EC as long as they didn’t have to rescue you and war didn't break out.
The volume of crap left on left Mt. Watkins by current “names” is significant when considered in the context of other recent and related incidents (DNWFHD/Arch/slacklines…), and because of the actual and potential consequences related to NPS policy which already have and will significantly affect the climbing community at large. I don’t need to cite examples to this group, we’re all aware of the situation. (see ST thread New Rules at Arches if you want)
From the Watkins thread:
“it’s up to climbers to be the stewards of there own garden if everyone wants to continue to have the freedoms Yosemite climbers have enjoyed for years (or to have more freedoms)… …the less we(The NPS) have to step in and clean up these areas the better it will be for climbers here in the Valley.” –JesseM, Climbing Ranger, YNP
While this includes the freedom to crap on each other and otherwise self-police, nobody is seriously calling for dire circumstances or saying, “lets go sh#t on so-and-so’s ropes.” The buzz is, “lets go pull all that stuff down before NPS does.” This isn’t fixed gear. Its been abandoned for possibly two winters. The Watkins gear wasn’t left on a first ascent. If it were it may not even be an issue. The fact that somebody rigged a wall as a top rope isn’t the issue, -I’m sure it makes for an outstanding and forward-thinking climb. But we’re not in Europe, this isn’t a Via Faretta. We’re not in Patagonia or the Himalaya either. You don’t abandon all your gear on the wall here, you go back and get it in a reasonable amount of time. The issue is that so much stuff was abandoned in the wilderness...on an established classic/historic Yosemite wall...is ruining the experience of other visitors to the park...endangering wildlife (DNWF)...etc...etc...etc. Certain people are being called out to clean up their crap and be held accountable for their actions before a possy of pissed off folks start cooking chili.
In the big picture I see, it's more important. Sorry.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Tarbuster, you beat me to it... I was just going to tell Russ how hilarious and (in general) perceptive that post was. There are a few points not strictly accurate, but, hey, everyone now knows that I'm not a nit-picker. :-)
Only problem I see is the idea you float that the "wrecking ball" might start swinging "the other way," and Russ picks up Werner's "witch hunt" phrase, and then we're off on the slippery slope again. Since Werner employed his big guns to initiate the whole "witch hunt" and I'm a "twisted soul" model, I'll turn my response to him at this point:
Werner, I guess I'm simply baffled why anybody would think that your "I don't give a rat's ass" attitude is noble or desireable. We live in a society, and all pseudo-zen crap aside, we are all connected in that web. "Minding one's own business" is certainly NOT the same thing as standing by watching passively while a person's rights are abused. (And whatever anybody thinks our early "transgressions" might or might not have been, nobody has even tried to get the ridiculous case off the ground that WE abused anybody's rights.)
Let's consider your own earlier opinion on the matter, when it was being applied directly to Mark and I: "Everyone can do what they want. That’s the independent free will that every living entity has. No one can take that away. But; ..... they are accountable for their actions according to the standard of truth."
Ok, even on Russ's model, we, the "Newcomers" had some responsibility to "prove ourselves," and this goes along with your notion that we should be "accountable for our actions." So, there is widespread agreement that WE should have been "held accountable" (if that's what we're calling the crap now).
Now, I must say that I wholeheartedly AGREE with your earlier post about the necessity for accountability, and all I'm saying is that Mark and I have played this little "accountability" game now for well over a year and a half. We've worked our way through flames, cutting sarcasm, yet more lies, and so forth; and ultimately have "proved ourselves" in any reasonable sense of that phrase. People can clearly see that we're not lunatics, and it's pretty clear at this point that the route is nothing like the stories told about it.
Yet, on your model, accountability only works AGAINST us! According to you, I'm a "twisted soul" if I ask you or anybody else to do something more than just stand passively by.
For you to call my desire for accountability on this matter a "witch hunt" is a surprising dysphemism. Is the desire for accountability expressed in the Mt. Watkins thread a "witch hunt?" Is a community that is trying to catch a serial robber on a "witch hunt?" When we try to hold our elected representatives accountable, are we all on a "witch hunt?"
It's one thing to say that I'm not likely to see satisfaction in this goal. But it's another thing to so tritely dismiss the goal itself.
The phrase itself isn't even accurate. As I'm sure you know, the entire "witch hunt" approach is so called BECAUSE it is seeking to hang on a FALSE label ("witch"). There are no witches (in the sense that that term was originally used), so a witch hunt is like a snipe hunt--there's nothing there to find, and so ONLY innocent people can get hurt in such a misguided effort.
However, our desire and goal for accountability can in NO way properly be labeled like this. There ARE some guys who did some totally ridiculous things; these are not "witches" because they and their actions really exist(ed). And, while Russ's post makes the whole thing seem fairly funny, it's only funny when you think of it as a sort of fiction. The FACT of the matter isn't funny at all.
Russ sort of makes it out like these guys were just "reacting" in a quasi-reasonable fashion. But they weren't. All they had to do was walk up to the base of the route and LOOK at it. And they DID look at it, at night, when they chopped it. No amount of dialog at the time, no amount of appeals to their empirical senses, and no amount of actually LOOKING could sway them. They were not ignorant; they were intentionally and maliciously avoiding the facts that were right in front of them.
I'm not going to start recounting the litany of things done to us over the years (for fear of more accusations of whining), but just re-read the hundreds of posts. If the climbing community concludes that THIS sort of behavior is okey-dokey, then I have only disdain for how worked up everybody gets over things like Mt. Watkins trash. I'm behind accountability in THAT case, and I'm behind accountability in general. So, let's not skew things now by acting like what these guys did wasn't really any big deal.
So, Werner, several guys are standing around the parking lot one day, and you come to your car to find that it has just be set on fire. You turn to the guys and ask, "Do you know anything about this?" Stop right there! On your model, even ASKING that question is already putting these POOR guys way too much on the spot. I mean, it "wasn't their bag" after all. Right? So why should you even THINK to ask that question of them.
Ok, but you're a totally consistent guy, Werner, so you DON'T ask. Instead, one of them actually comes up to you and says, "By the way, dude, I happen to know who did this." So now you ask, "Really? Please tell me." Stop right there again! You have NO right to even ask that question! It wasn't their bag, man! The fact that they claim to have relevant information gives you NO right to "try to drag them into something that had nothing to do with them!"
But, you're a totally consistent guy, so you don't even ask that question. Instead, you just start asking around, trying to get to the bottom of who set this FIFTH fire to your car. (Oh, didn't I mention? The guys who have been trashing your car have a long history of doing it, and you would sure like it to stop.) Stop right there! You have NO right to try to drag ANYBODY else into what is really YOUR mess! To even TRY to get to the bottom of who has been trashing your car over and over just demonstrates what a twisted soul you have and what a witch hunt you are off on!
Ridiculous!
If you believe in accountability at all, then it IS possible for us to get to the bottom of "who trashed the car" and hold them accountable for it. THAT process is how the fabric of society itself is maintained! I have EVERY right to ask my neighbor if he saw who broke into my house, and if he claims that he did, then I certainly have EVERY right to EXPECT that he will tell me what he knows about it. THAT's the principle of mutual protection that maintains our basic human rights.
If you don't believe in accountability in general, then what you're really saying is that you "don't give a rat's ass" about the human community and the protection of human rights.
Finally, if you ONLY don't believe in accountability in THIS particular case, then you only reveal a fundamental inconsistency in how you think things should work: "If accountability serves me, then I'm all for it. But if it threatens me or anybody I care about, then it's a 'witch hunt.'"
Of course, as you've said over and over, you don't care about this whole subject. But I'm not clear about that claim either, because you have been one of the most avid posters since its inception. Odd for someone who so totally doesn't care....
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Jerry, I understand your points, and I think you've got a rational perspective there. I don't agree with it, obviously, but that's of little consequence because the bottom line is that we don't HAVE to rank these things on a hierarchy of importance. This is not an "either-or" situation, where either we want accountability in the Watkins case OR we want accountability in the WoS case. I'm saying that we should seek for accountability in general. It's no "witch hunt," as I've just posted, to try to get to the bottom of the matter in either case.
Well, I'll be gone from now until sometime on Tuesday. My silence doesn't imply disinterest or tacit agreement. :-)
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Jerry Dodrill
climber
Bodega, CA
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I don't expect you to agree. And the heirarchal reference was yours.
Edit:
Richard, I'm sympathetic to your situation. I'm coming from an SDA background as well, which is one the interesting sidelines to all this, and I believe we have associates in common. I truly hope you find peace in this journey.
-Jerry
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elcapfool
Big Wall climber
hiding in plain sight
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The meaning of WoS should be changed to "Whinning on Supertopo."
Questions- was your car vandalized , or just threatened?
Were you ever physically assaulted, or just threatened?
And if you jetisoned a bag, what makes you think someone "pilfered" it. From the official point of view, they were cleaning up trash and abandoned gear.
Like it or not, you guys have made names for yourselves, but not as the rad wall pioneers you wanted to be. All the tr's are "we are so great, no one even understands what we do", and I find them tiresome and repetitive ego dissertations.
You may be nice guys, but your continued refusal to consider you own involvement in the creation of ire against you, is the main flaw in your arguments. It is always 'this was done to us', and never once without sarcasm is it suggested that you have any culpability.
Comparing WoS to Magic Mushroom? I can't even bother with that one.
Every time you gain some ground with valid points, you push it too far, and end up decking in the talus of public opinion.
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darod
Trad climber
South Side Billburg
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First of all, let me say that I regreted my last post as soon as I pressed the POST THIS REPLY button, but i was too drunk to think clearer. My apologies to WB.
What I won't apologize for (and now i'm sobber, although very hangover!) is this sentiment of frustration that overwhelms me. When I see so many people that choose not to take a stand, people that just want this thing to go away, is just very upsetting. What happend to the WoS boys can and will happen to any of us, if we just choose to "let it go".
Maybe the fact that I'm an outsider, not a valley boy, not a "local", makes me feel Richard's and Mark's pain as my own, and feel that a great injustice would be done to us all if we just choose to look away and not care about the truth and some accountability.
Personally, i would love to see the REAL story of WoS on Alpinist magazine, even if none of the "perpetrators" ever have the balls to come out, at least that would be a little bit of justice to these men, and they way a see it, a little justice for all of us.
I guess I'm also an idealist....
darod.
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Speleoguy
Big Wall climber
Tucson, AZ
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Does anybody ever climb anymore??????
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand, Man.....
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 4, 2006 - 10:46am PT
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darod = Mel Gibson
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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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russ that was a really good one!
hahahahahahahahaha
Does anyone have the one or two old CLIMBING issues that had some write-ups in them after the WoS ascent? I think I might but they are in storage and I am too busy (read lazy) to dig them up right now.
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darod
Trad climber
South Side Billburg
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lol
salud!
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deuce4
Big Wall climber
the Southwest
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More for the worms...
Hints of the delusional nature of the "one who types every other word in ALL CAPS" is shown by the discussion of hooks.
Big hooks for climbing have been around for some time, predating, yes, even Wings of Steel. Ring Angle pitons had been fashioned to create big hooks for eons, and after ring angle pitons were no longer available, each generation had to devise their own methods and materials to create big hooks. In particular, Fish's model (I worked with Walt on its design) was designed in a way to use the modern steel, and a way for Fish to be able to manufacture it at his mom's house, by heating it and bending it over a pipe. No one "stole" anybody's else's design on this one.
The other issue, regarding the supposed "Camp 4 conspiracy", it still seems to me as a feud between two climbers (non-local, and vocal), and a small group of folks who were in Camp 4 at the time. What took place between the two sides we don't know; obviously it escalated to the point where climbing gear was desecrated, which was the wrong thing to do, but it happened. Still, it is a case of climber vs. climber feud which has happened ad infinitum since the dawn of mountaineering.
In terms of Grossman's statements of excessive bolts in Straussman's book, that is an valid opinion (which I concur with) and not part of a "smear campaign". At the time, the accepted standard of drilling for new El Cap routes was on the order of 3-4 bolts (or holes) per pitch; Wings of Steel had in excess 10 bolts per pitch. The number of holes was simply an indicator of the naturalness of the line, and unnatural lines were eschewed by the majority of climbers at the time, especially on El Capitan, a sacred peak.
And though it may prove clear that the hooking on the route is extremely difficult, the vague nature of the amount of "crystal enhancement" on Wings of Steel hints that the climbing may include manufactured difficulty, as opposed to natural difficulty.
At the time, there was no doubt to any climbers doing first ascents that we could easily "create" an A5 lead by enhancing a flake here or there, but the challenge was to find the piece of rock that offered continuous natural difficulty. When on lead and eventually faced with no natural placement, the accepted standard was to drill a rivet, hence lowering the difficulty, rather than enhance a placement. This ethic was both for future route viability, and because it was well known that on lead, with the safety of a bolt kit, the first ascent had an advantage over subsequent ascents.
I have no qualms with the first ascentionists of Wings of Steel, yet their constant prodding of the past (looking for retribution?), though good fodder for this forum, seems to be pointless. The experience of climbing should be enough for any true climber, what others think is irrelevant in the end.
Disclaimer: I have not read the bazillion posts and counter posts in this topic in Supertopo, so forgive me if these points have already been covered ad naseum.
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