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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Donnini's got the religious component bass ackwards.
The antislavery movement began in and was driven by church denominations in the northeast and west.
California had a large Copperhead contingent, so much so that a garrison was placed at Tejon Pass to keep them bottled up in the south. Some of the buildings are still there.
El Monte was a Copperhead hub and the sentiment lingered into the late 1970's with a strong American Nazi party presence.
If there'd never been slavery, there'd never have been a civil war.
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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There's more than one flag you should look out for...
Although, the Japan/Korea/China trifecta hate eachother so intensely that maybe they can just deal while we all get really cool designs on our T-Shirts. Ain't no "it's a small world" out East.
And who is doling out these hospital trips, 'ol noodle-arm burch? Lol. Better pray the proud redneck didn't take High School Wrestling bub.
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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White People are so pathetic. Even though a symbol of 'pride' and 'heritage' reminds MILLIONS of others of their oppression and role as second class citizens, ain't no budgin'! IT'S MAH FLAG YOU CAN TEAR FROM MAH COLD DED FINGERS!
So silly. You just have no idea how silly it looks. Please, carry on, and continue to be the laughing stock of the first world. Gives me something to read on a Saturday morning while sipping coffee.
Millions of your brothers and countrymen/women absolutely hate it, but sure. Fly it high and proud, because f*#k them.
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elcap-pics
Big Wall climber
Crestline CA
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I suppose that the US flag is in the same class as the confederate flag in the eyes of many people in SE Asia, and other parts of the world.. we were invaders, baby killers, destroyers of homes and villages, killers of innocent people. It is instructive to look at the flag thing... any flag really.. (as the victors write the history in the context of their ideals).. in the eyes of the solders who actually fought in the wars under the various banners.
To the fighting solder war is not about the grand themes of the conflict, but about the brotherhood of those in battle with them. Soldiers don't fight for political reasons. They fight to stay alive and to keep their brothers in arms alive. No matter the politics. If one looks at the qualities of hard fighting soldiers, no matter the side they fight on, one can't but admire the qualities of courage, sacrifice, selflessness, determination and the willingness to die to save one's friends, under the most horrible of circumstances. I admire great soldiers, and fighting men in general, no matter on what side they fought. I am a graduate of the Virginia Military Institute, the institution which produced many of the commanders of the Southern Armies. Stonewall Jackson was an instructor there before he served and died in the service of his country. It is easy to look at such people from our present enlightenment. However, that is not an accurate view.
People should be viewed as they were in their own time. Jackson overcame many difficulties with intelligence and determination and his tactics are still studied in military schools today... one can say the same for Lee, Longstreet, Grant, Sherman, Romel, Patton... the list goes on and on. As Tennyson(thanks Crunch!) said in the "Charge of the Light Brigade", words to the effect... "ours is not to reason why, ours is but to do and die". That is the code of the soldier... other people get to weigh alternatives and whether the cause is just... "ours is but to do and die."
At VMI we remember the men who fought with honor, courage, and sacrifice, no matter the side they fought for. For me the confederate flag is a reminder of those men, and a way of honoring their sacrifice... it is not, for me, an endorsement of slavery. Like some have mentioned above,the men who fought under that flag were, most often, just simple men who had nothing to do with slavery and were, for the most part, drafted into service or went with the idea that they were protecting their homes from northern armies who invaded their homeland. The North invaded the South, you may recall. Education levels at that time in history were lower that we now can imagine.. the common man was largely ignorant of most things unrelated to how he was going to eek out a living for his family, in an age of manual labor. So I suggest here that nothing involved in the entire conflict was so simple as many of you seem to think... wars never are!
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Interesting bit of fiction about Robert E. Lee. How many slaves did he own? What was the name of his plantation? You seem to be implying he played a role in secession from The Union. If so, that's total BS.
Wow, did shitch just imply Lee was not of prominent plantation stalk? He would have owned slaves and a plantation... if it weren't for his father's poor investments. But don't let reality skew your fantasy world fukwad.
From that war came the largest stride in human rights ever.
The US Civil War wasn't about slavery and the Federal Govt has no right to tell the states what to do? But on the bright side we made strides in human rights because of the Civil War? The naming of a football team and the Civil War are just examples of PC bullshit gone too far? Jesus you fuking idiots crack me up!!!!
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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At some point "PC Crap" isn't about isn't about giving up things you love but about being a good person.
The National Congress of American Indians has asked that the team change it's name - I don't think anyone should be legislated to make ANY changes. Want a bible on your store front? Cool. A confederate flag on your truck on the way to the redskins before the clan rally? Go for it. But you are a dick, and I hope to the God you pretend exists that your kids grow up hating you and swing the other direction ;D
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Deekaid
climber
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quick thread drift here... Mr Davis I know you are enamored with MMA but implying that only people with large arms and a wrestling background can fight is pretty naive
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Arguing history with climbers?
Would any of us argue climbing ethics with a noob who just saw Cliffhanger?
As the human race becomes more and more hybridized the issue of race will become moribund.
But here in Washington County, "Utah's Dixie", the stars and bars are ubiquitous, and you can't swing a dead cat without hitting a closeted racist (and many don't even bother to hide it).
I live in a town that passed an ordnance banning the flying of a UN flag!
Plenty of Confederate flags though.
Burchy should climb here,...
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elcap-pics
Big Wall climber
Crestline CA
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Washington, Jefferson, and others who were the founding fathers, owned slaves and wrote a constitution that didn't count them or women as citizens able to vote... how come all the haters who have shown up on this thread are not hating on them???
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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I suppose that the US flag is in the same class as the confederate flag in the eyes of many people in SE Asia, and other parts of the world.. we were invaders, baby killers, destroyers of homes and villages, killers of innocent people. It is instructive to look at the flag thing... any flag really.. (as the victors write the history in the context of their ideals).. in the eyes of the solders who actually fought in the wars under the various banners.
To the fighting solder war is not about the grand themes of the conflict, but about the brotherhood of those in battle with them. Soldiers don't fight for political reasons. They fight to stay alive and to keep their brothers in arms alive. No matter the politics. If one looks at the qualities of hard fighting soldiers, no matter the side they fight on, one can't but admire the qualities of courage, sacrifice, selflessness, determination and the willingness to die to save one's friends, under the most horrible of circumstances. I admire great soldiers, and fighting men in general, no matter on what side they fought. I am a graduate of the Virginia Military Institute, the institution which produced many of the commanders of the Southern Armies. Stonewall Jackson was an instructor there before he served and died in the service of his country. It is easy to look at such people from our present enlightenment. However, that is not an accurate view.
People should be viewed as they were in their own time.
Disagree. As time moves on, this becomes near impossible. When wars end it is the duty of the survivors to try to make sense of what happened, to learn and move on, hopefully prevent more bloodshed.
As Longfellow said in the "Charge of the Light Brigade", "ours is not to reason why, ours is but to do and die".
These lines illustrate just how reputations change (or how reputations are deliberately twisted to serve new purposes). You have the wrong poet, and the words are not quite right. They were written during the Crimea War and much celebrated at the time in the UK, during the height of Victorian pride and power. Which of course, led to hubris and the fighting of a war, a few decades later, fought with staggeringly cruel incompetence by the privileged, wealthy, upper-class officer classes of Europe.
After the First Word War war, the sentiments behind Tennyson's poem--and his entire reputation, really--were trashed. After that war, it became very clear that the surviving solders of Germany, France, Britain, America etc--who had fought with extraordinary bravery in horrific conditions--had far more in common with each other than they ever could have with the generals and aristocrats (and war-glorifying poets).
Which is true of all wars.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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No Hater here. I don't have a fully formed opinion on that version of confederate heraldry.
I don't emotionally connect it to slavery. I emotionally connect it to the Dukes of Hazard. A show I loved as a kid and to this day find better than most. As a once dirtbag climber I can relate a bit to that theme song.
Just'a good ol' boys
Never meanin' no harm.
Beats all you never saw
Been in trouble with the law
Since the day they was born
Staightnin' the curves
Flatnin the hills
Someday the mountain might get 'em
But the law never will
Makin' their way
The only way they know how
That's just a little bit more
Than the law will allow.
But I hate racism and the evils of slavery. If for a truly large number of people it is a symbol of racism. If some people use it to flaunt their racist views. That changes things a great deal.
What good there might actually be in the history of that symbol may be destroyed by those who use it to bully.
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Psilocyborg
climber
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A flag simply is. It only has the power and meaning you ascribe to it.
It is like when the world was flat....then it was round
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Anastasia
climber
Home
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That is way too extreme!!!
Since I do spend time in the South let me just say this...
Confederate flag isn't a white power symbol. Not for many that do hang it up.
It's Southern Pride and about the South being "a different place." Different meaning the rules of Southern hospitality, how neighbors stick together and a suspicion of the law since it had a habit of being corrupt. It is why the T.V. show, The Dukes of Hazard had it on the General Lee (their car.) It's about black peas and grits, girls in jean shorts and drinking ice tea/moonshine in the shade.
Maybe that is the romanticizing of it... That is true... Yet it is what it is... I don't immediately think of White Power when I see a Confederate Flag. Now when I see a Nazi flag, now that sickens me deeply. Now that disgust me. Confederate... Well, remember... President Lincoln didn't emancipate the slaves until late in the war. So... It wasn't purely about slavery, it was about money and power. Plantations against the industrial states and who will have the overall say about how things are run. The war against slavery is also a bit romanticized, idealist, and not accurate.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Ron said About 90% of the southern soldiers NEVER OWNED A SLAVE in their lifes.
Hey look I never actually owned a person I just killed other people to preserve the right to own people, ok? Don't act like I'm the bad guy.
Ron continued Silver lining is: From that war came the largest stride in human rights ever.
It's true! Freed slaves were immediately given the right to vote, live where they liked and receive equal treatment from their police and government.
Ron invented Many "groups" called for the Washington Redskins to change their name recently. Even though the vast majority of local Indians seemed totally un-bothered by that. Even thinking its a bit of an Honor. Me thinks this PC crap is yet another avenue to keep the fires of prejudice alive and well.
Hmmmm yes there's nothing people like more than having a sports team named a racial epithet used to dehumanize them. That's why I have a special place in my heart for the Harlem Honkies and their amazing mascot, Giant Head of Mitt Romney. I especially like the way they dress him in pleated pants and do that rhythmless, jerky dance to '"Play That Funky Music" at halftime. It just makes me feel like I'm a part of the game! Of course those jerks from the PC police keep the flames of prejudice alive and well by questioning whether or not this is just playing to a racial stereotype but we all know it's just that they're mad that white people suck at basketball.
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Psilocyborg
climber
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Anyone who thinks the civil war was about freeing black people from slavery is naive. That just isn't the way the world works, and especially isnt how america works
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Deekaid
climber
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you guys do realize that burchy the one man army against racism is gone leaving you all to tear at each other to his eternal delight.
i am positive he could easily find some skinheads to take retribution on...i don't think he tried very hard.
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Deekaid
climber
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and all the sh#t that people have come up with as racial slurs against white people has never bothered me in the least... honky what the hell is that anyway?
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Q- Ball
Mountain climber
where the wind always blows
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Do you know who we (USA) bought many slaves from? NATIVE AFRICANS
Point is- at that time most countries and cultures participated and it was a tribal thing not racial. The confederate flag is not a symbol of racism. I am sorry you aren't able to comprehend that. I hope your ignorant views do not permeate the rest of society.
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dirtbag
climber
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Christ, what a bunch of idiots....
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Q- Ball
Mountain climber
where the wind always blows
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Dirtbag- It is hard to argue with facts
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