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MisterE
climber
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Oct 22, 2013 - 11:18pm PT
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We believe that every mistake is an opportunity for growth and learning. With this in mind, we will be funding a new communications program in partnership with the Access Fund. The goal of this initiative is to help new and seasoned climbers alike better understand best practices when climbing and developing new routes on public and private lands.
Good on Petzl - I imagine they have been around the block a few times on this issue being a French company, and obviously have a great PR team.
That is the response we wanted to hear from Sterling but didn't get.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Oct 23, 2013 - 11:48am PT
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Public whipping boy put himself in the stocks.
exactly. he's a professional, he climbs for a living, he promotes the brand of his sponsors, and he is part of a group of pro athletes who, for bad and worse, constitute much of the public face of the sport, especially to land managers and larger publics.
those complaining that he's being held to a different standard are missing the point: that's what "professional" means.
if you don't want your every climbing action to be held up to public scrutiny, don't take the check. if you don't want the responsibility of representing the sport, don't take the check. if you want to be a bad boy rebel who plays by his own rules and sticks it to the man, don't take the check.
one of the more sordid but predictable elements of the kinder/pringle hacksaw debacle has been the amazing amateurism that has marked each and every stage of the story. i'm not surprised that a couple of pro climbers would have that little common sense when it came to prepping an fa. but the handling of the story has been like a seminar in how not to run a marketing campaign.
they started off by going into the bunker. then they each attempted to snuff out the story on those limited parts of the social media they could manage. then joe apparently lied to a stringer over at adventure journal and told them the incident never happened. then finally, presumably once the photo evidence turned up and the sponsors started to apply heat, we get a remarkably clumsy semi-apology on a blog.
the amateurism of the affair ought to be a lesson, if not for pringle and kinder, for all the other folks out there contemplating a career as a pro. being a pro ought to entail professionalism.
in the grand scheme of things, this is a minor incident, and some of the response (death threats? wtf?) has been over the top, but these incidents have a cumulative effect on land managers and other stakeholders. they are easily run together by those wanting to limit access, and in many places, it will probably be a similarly minor incident that will push access over a tipping point.
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squishy
Mountain climber
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Oct 23, 2013 - 01:41pm PT
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They must be mocked.
Oh look at me I'm super badass and can climb 5.14, lets go put up routes because were the best climbers. Come on Nathan! Oh look a badass route, totally stoked dude, lets send it, lemme just get this tree outa the way.
Wait, what? People all pissed and sh#t? Why? it was just a tree? A thousand year old tree you say? oh, well that sucks, but the route is badass and I can climb it! Sh#t, death threats? I guess I better say sorry I didn't realize climber cared about the natural environment, I mean really, in California? Oh no my sponsors are getting letters, I need to turn myself in and do damage control or else I will never work in this industry again. Pleed Pleed Pleed.
Look at this thread mom, this guy keeps calling me out and talking sh#t about my character, I cannot for the life of me figure out why they will not listen to my apology, I said sorry...
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squishy
Mountain climber
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Oct 23, 2013 - 01:44pm PT
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The best part of this entire debacle is that sponsored, professional, public figures held up by companies as "ambassadors" are legally fair game when it comes to slander and defamation, in any media form. Let me spell that out for the sponsors, just in case they missed it.
That means I can talk sh#t about this blowhard and your company until he is no longer a public figure, then he's just another person and climber and subject to the same protections I am.
Just some food for thought...
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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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Oct 23, 2013 - 01:52pm PT
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Squishster makes me proud to be a climber. Proud.
Only in climbing does everyone from a Noob TRing 5.6 to Alex Honnold have opions that hold the same weight.
I ride a cruiser to work, so I am on the same level as Cat 1 bike racers.
Awesomesauce.
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cintune
climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
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Oct 23, 2013 - 01:57pm PT
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Yeah brah, it's all about what level you're on. Free pass to be a dumbass cuz I can crush it.
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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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Oct 23, 2013 - 02:01pm PT
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Yep, the lower the better, gives one more honest perspective.
I hope to do 5.8 some day, and it REALLY pisses me off that people get paid to climb 5.15.
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cintune
climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
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Oct 23, 2013 - 02:18pm PT
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Nope, brah, you're missing it completely. Sharma and Honnold and lots of others manage to get paid to climb way better than Kindling without consistently annoying the hell out of us lesser beings.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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squishy
Mountain climber
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Oct 23, 2013 - 02:25pm PT
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I will admit I am a nobody, and I will admit my opinion (intrinsically) holds no weight within the, dare I say it, tribe. But the audience doesn't know that, this keyboard is more powerful and deserves your respect. You point out a good fact but it's not relevant online, not in the information age.
Who cares right? Not like I put up routes in the Tahoe area, oh wait, I do. I guess it's ok for me to quietly cut down trees now? Best part is that I can sue you all for slander if you call me on it in a public forum and you still can't stop me from cutting trees. Mostly because I can only climb 5.8 and am not sponsored. SO in effect I am more powerful. So tell me again why we as a community should let this go? That we should not hold everyone to a higher standard? Is it really because I can't climb 5.14? really? Is it really because Mr Kindling has "done a lot for the community"?
I may not be a Kindling, and I am glad, based on what I see.
THIS IS UNACCEPTABLE, always has been and always will be. Since the invention of the National Park system, since before the Sierra club rid itself of those stinking climbers. If I see the guy, even if it's at an event where he is speaking about being a good steward, I will be in the back yelling "how about that tree you cut down?!!". I don't care how much he apologizes or how much his fine was, he does not deserve a place in this community any longer. If he's on a stage (of any kind), I will bitch.
As DMT noted, he deserves to be mocked, and not for a week, or a month or a year. FOREVER! Irreversible acts result in irreversible consequences, that is nature, we are nature, he is nature...I hope his reputation rots on the forest floor along with the tree, it's actually a tame punishment. I have never threatened him or called for blood, but I have asked that he no longer represent climbing or companies and I stand by that.
No one has even mentioned how such a personality (someone who could do such a thing on purpose or unknowingly) even got to where he was. How many trees did he cut that we do not know about? How many are cut by other pro climber with the same attitude all the time on the hush hush? If the focus is on climbing harder, climbing the next grade then the industry has completely lost sight of what the sport is about. What this event really sheds light on, is an industry that would allow someone like him to represent it in the 1st place. Then they drive that person to produce and sometimes they cut corners, I mean conifers..
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squishy
Mountain climber
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Oct 23, 2013 - 02:45pm PT
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Are people really are sending him death threats, that's pretty lame. What can you hope to accomplish that way?
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squishy
Mountain climber
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Oct 23, 2013 - 03:03pm PT
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My name is Sean, nice to me you.
And I will admit my flaws or mistakes when it's relevant to the conversation, with my head held high. Do you have anything I should address? I would love to display my character, but this thread isn't about me.
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David D.
Trad climber
Monterey
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Oct 23, 2013 - 03:04pm PT
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I wonder how many people in this thread tearing apart Joe for cutting down a tree get equally pissed off when people suggest putting in bolted belays and rap anchors instead of wrapping miles of webbing around trees in pursuit of some quixotic pursuit of "traditional" ethics. Both kill the tree, one just does it in a slower way that lets people shirk responsibility for their actions.
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squishy
Mountain climber
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Oct 23, 2013 - 03:10pm PT
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I wonder how many people in this thread tearing apart Joe for cutting down a tree get equally pissed off when people suggest putting in bolted belays and rap anchors instead of wrapping miles of webbing around trees in pursuit of some quixotic pursuit of "traditional" ethics. Both kill the tree, one just does it in a slower way that lets people shirk responsibility for their actions.
I have slung many trees, just as you say and you bring up a good point. I think it's an important one, I think it's a good thing for climbers to remember. When we are faced with the safety of our life, we tend to overlook the damage being done to a tree. And it would be a good reason for bolted anchors at such locations (where local ethics/laws would allow). I think bolts are a fair alternative to killing a tree, even slowly. I am guilty and anyone who has climbed a route that requires a slung tree is as well. I will make an effort to place an anchor instead, when I can. Even on 5.4's...
Does alpine count? Where you may be the one person to have ever slung the tree? Is once too many times?
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Roughster
Sport climber
Vacaville, CA
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Oct 23, 2013 - 03:25pm PT
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The hypocrisy of this thread is funny. If you are over 30 and are reading this thread, YOU HAVE CUT A TREE DOWN BEFORE, PERIOD! It was impossible to grow up in the 70s and not have chopped down a tree unless you were both physically and mentally handicapped.
That does not justify what Joe did, but jeesh these "He should condemned to hell FOREVER" comments are a bit ridiculous.
The bottom line: He screwed up and he understands that. The dialogue of why it was wrong / bad idea is a good thing. The crucifixion of him is totally uncalled for and is a bad thing.
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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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Oct 23, 2013 - 03:25pm PT
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whoah, Ron posts a balanced, reasonable argument.... finding self agreeing.... brain exploding
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jstan
climber
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Oct 23, 2013 - 03:27pm PT
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Only in climbing does everyone from a Noob TRing 5.6 to Alex Honnold have opions that hold the same weight. Patrick Compton
Paddy:
What part of Democracy don't you understand? You took American history in high school? If not, perhaps you should take a refresher course in adult ed? Or better, apply for citizenship. You will have to take a test.
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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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Oct 23, 2013 - 03:31pm PT
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I am sitting on my couch, 100 pounds overweight, eating McDonalds for the 5th time this week..
...Lance Armstrong that cheater is on the news. I hate that guy.
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jstan
climber
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Oct 23, 2013 - 03:44pm PT
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Lance Armstrong that cheater is on the news. I hate that guy.
Would you like to tell us how you reached this conclusion?
This would then become what is called "a discussion".
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Oct 23, 2013 - 03:45pm PT
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A number of years ago some guy cut down a tree in Joshua Tree National Monument because it was in the way of some rad 60 foot route he wanted to do. The stump and some remains are still there, by the wall to the right of Energy Crisis, a route which has been closed due to native American rock art (although I have heard that said art was created by a climber who was studying such art, and had made authentic dyes etc.)
Anyway the word of the tree cutting got around, and a member of the local Hidden Valley crew (not me) ratted the guy out. This actually went over fairly well with the rangers, who summarily gave the guy the boot.
The other day I was walking around out behind HVCC and noticed that one of my old routes, DynoSoar, is now entirely obstructed by a tree. It kind of made me feel good, like a survivor.
I've got to say that I cannot fathom the mental process which would lead one to the conclusion that an ancient tree should go to clear the way for a rock climb. But then others would argue that it is just a matter of degree. I cut some branches off a bush in the Kern Canyon more than once, and cleaned a whole lot of grass and moss out of a crack at Courtright on another occasion...
I do agree that in many cases fixed rap anchors greatly reduce impact.
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Seamstress
Trad climber
Yacolt, WA
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Oct 23, 2013 - 04:21pm PT
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I am well over 30 and have never cut down a tree. I have an opinion and feel compelled to share it so:
1) others think about their actions
2) land managers who peek at these forums understand that the wider community does not condone that behavior
It is not about piling on and making one guy's life a living hell. it is about preventing additional unacceptable actions so that the land managers don't further restrict and prohibit climbing since we can't behave.
I can be a lot of fun. This isn't funny.
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