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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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Aug 14, 2013 - 09:26am PT
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Uh.. let's get real Goat.. the tourons are still going to ask questions and want to look through the camera..it's as inevitable as the sunrise. I suspect Tom will simply go back to being a nice guy for no pay or benefits.
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
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Aug 14, 2013 - 10:15am PT
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Sounds like everything is for the best. I dont see any reason not to put the photos back online, or any argument that they belong to the NPS. Need to find a way to stay there legally though. I often find myself in situations where it would be easier to just ignore the law, but if you do that you have no legal rights, you're defenseless. Also we need to organize to slash the NPS budget as much as possible. It sounds to me like they have too many layers of useless bureaucrats who have nothing better to do than get into petty personal disputes with park visitors.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Aug 14, 2013 - 10:33am PT
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Chaz posted I have NEVER gotten a permit for commercial photography, mainly because I'm not a good enough photographer to actually compose a shot. I just take hundreds of pictures, and weed out all but maybe a couple to keep. Once in a Blue Moon, one sells. I'm sure as hell not going to go apply for a permit to cover something I already did.
I was under the understanding that the Parks belong to all of us ( so long as your taxes are paid up ), and that I don't need permission to sell a picture of Intersection Rock any more than I need a permit to sell shots of my own house.
They do belong to all of us which is why someone needs to pay the rest of us to profit off of them. Legally speaking, you do need permission to sell a picture of Intersection Rock, which is not in fact your personal property.
The idea that the pictures "belong" to the NPS seems absurd and I'm not clear on their argument there but the privilege to profit off of them is certainly as licensable and the privilege to guide, forest or mine them.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Aug 14, 2013 - 10:37am PT
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That is fairly ridiculous. It's one thing if a professional photographer or movie production comes in and want to film. I'm fine with the permit system required for those types of commercial endeavors.
For the average individual photographer who from time to time "might" sell a photo or make a youtube video it is not right to expect or require them do anymore than the average park visitor.
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goatboy smellz
climber
Nederland-GulfBreeze
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Aug 14, 2013 - 11:30am PT
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
Aug 14, 2013 - 06:26am PT
Uh.. let's get real Goat.. the tourons are still going to ask questions and want to look through the camera..it's as inevitable as the sunrise. I suspect Tom will simply go back to being a nice guy for no pay or benefits.
Friends with benefits?
Win Win!
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Aug 14, 2013 - 02:42pm PT
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Wow! You even made it higher on the pyramid than Ammon??? That's sayin' something. ;)
So what about negotiation?
You print out a copy of the offer for a contract that they gave you. You grab a red pen, you scratch out what you don't like, and write in your suggestion of what to change and how. You initial the changes.
Then you return the contract to the powers that be and wait to see what they accept and don't accept.
You send the paper back and forth for a few iterations, you both give and take a bit, and then in the end you come up with something that is workable.
Have you tried this? If so, how did it work out? And if not, why not?
See you in a few weeks, eh?
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Aug 14, 2013 - 03:08pm PT
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Legally speaking, you do need permission to sell a picture of Intersection Rock, which is not in fact your personal property.
I'm no legal scholar but I thought that we, the people, owned our federal
lands in common. I mean, it is guvmint of the people, by the people, and
for the people, right? Bwa Ha Ha Ha Ha! Now I'm going to go have a gud cry.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Aug 14, 2013 - 03:14pm PT
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HDDJ say:
the privilege to profit off of them
Here's where it gets sticky bro. "Profit" isn't achieved until the expenses to produce are covered. Now we could easily argue that Tom is in fact a non-profit producing enterprise.
Do we really think he has covered the costs of all that high end camera and scope gear via sales? How about his transportation costs, lodging, food, while taking the shots? Legit biz expenses. Then there are all the years of experimenting with educating himself on how/when etc to get good shots at that location. And on and on.
So to say he is "profiting" is comical at best. What say ye, Mr. DJ?
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
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Aug 14, 2013 - 04:34pm PT
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That's interesting. Of course you own the rights to your own photos. Movie stars have a 'right of publicity' but that's not applicable here. On the other hand the NPS can apparently require you to get a permit to take pictures in some limited circumstances (previous post). Take a look at it and tell me how this applies to Tom:
Still photographers require a permit when
1. the activity takes place at location(s) where or when members of the public are generally not allowed; or
2. the activity uses model(s), sets(s), or prop(s) that are not a part of the location’s natural or cultural resources or administrative facilities; or
3. Park would incur additional administrative costs to monitor the activity.
As long as they don't close the meadow, it doesn't seem that Tom even needs a permit.
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ag.Fox
Trad climber
Reno, NV
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Aug 14, 2013 - 05:32pm PT
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.... this Dude couldn’t abide!!
You know...that bridge really tied the whole valley together man :-0
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Aug 14, 2013 - 05:36pm PT
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hey there say, tom... thanks for sharing...
i will go read your link...
wow, we will miss you... :(
just seeing and known that you are sharing folks, and pic, from up
there, always keeps me on my toes, to pray more for all those folks,
as, i can forget sometimes that a climb may be going on, being that there is NO ROCK-LAND or climbing going on here, to keep me alert, and--i now you
have blessed so many more folks, in even stronger ways--letting them see their family or loved ones, up there, enjoying what they do... :)
edit:
read your link... very nice share, tom...
did not know a lot of that stuff, etc...
also, wow, then, we WON'T miss you? you will take private-shots
while just visiting, and share on your web... that will be nice...
god bless... every new BEND in the road, leads to new adventures, :)
sometimes, we just need to BENDABLE, :)
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BooDawg
Social climber
Butterfly Town
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Aug 14, 2013 - 10:04pm PT
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Will El Cap Meadow become closed as a result of the Merced River Management Plan?????
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Aug 14, 2013 - 10:57pm PT
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This is actually a no brainer for professional photographers. editorial work/news is a free for all. if it is on public property or you can see it from public property shoot away until the cops come, then get shots of them tazeing you. If it bleeds it leads;)
Commercial photography /advertisement. if it is a big enough production/client to be noticed you need permits in many public locations.
Event protography is what I do most www.nkgphoto.com and this seems to be what Tom does a lot of. shooting sports and posting the photos for sale on a webstore. I almost Never shoot without permission from the event. often i have a writen contract. in this case the park is the boss and you have to either be small/unsuccessfull enough to not be noticed or have permission from the management.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Aug 15, 2013 - 12:40am PT
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I'll always bring the beer.
Tom does what he does. He's as solid as people get.
Unique in all the world.
Of value. Like Yosemite.
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cmcc
Trad climber
Redding, CA
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Aug 15, 2013 - 01:04am PT
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Tom, thanks for bring so much entertainment, education, history, and mostly inspiring the desire for adventure!
Over the years I have liked the idea of your partnership with the parks service... given me a happy thoughts... well... this garbage about claiming rights to your work seems to confirm my suspicion about the increasing arm of the government. Maybe my pictures are next... I did purchase a pass and who knows what rights I gave up in that transaction.
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Aug 15, 2013 - 01:15am PT
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Keep up the radness.
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
extraordinaire
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Aug 15, 2013 - 02:23am PT
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The whole program is dumb. Why do tourists need to know anything about rock climbing?
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Onewhowalksonrocks
Mountain climber
In the middle of the ocean
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Aug 15, 2013 - 04:05am PT
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Just saying.....
Don't tell... Don't say.
Simple
WTF...........Do you need the spot light................
Do something else. Slacking, bouldering and golfing where no one cares who you f*&#ed or how your f&*^ked
OK I really just wish this would go away so I could crush in the meadow again.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Aug 15, 2013 - 06:42am PT
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Event photography is a pretty much different from most other professional photography in that it is kind of like running a store in their front yard . as long as you do not solicit (hand out buisness cards) you would fly under the radar but as soon as you make enough of a presence so that management knows what you are doing they often get all pissy and think you are getting rich and they want a cut...
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