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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Attempts to eliminate all risk from climbing is logical but also a move in removing all adventure and seriousness from the sport. It's a very tricky business, and another reminder that attempts to reduce climbing to merely physical movement is probably impossible so long as Old Man Gravity is out there.
JL
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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Wow. My condolences to all involved. What a horrible way to loose such a young soul.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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I agree with Largo. Unfortunately, we can create an illusion of safety without, however, having actually achieved that goal. The problem with that illusion is that it becomes all too easy to forget about the mortal dangers lurking just behind a surface of casual good fun, and then a momentary lapse of attention becomes a life-altering or life-ending catastrophe. It is incredibly sad that Edward Whymper's words, written in 1872 after his tragedy on the first ascent of the Matternorn, have lost none of their immediacy for us today, in spite of all the advances in technique and equipment:
"Climb if you will, but remember that courage and strength are nought without prudence, and that a momentary negligence may destroy the happiness of a lifetime. Do nothing in haste; look well to each step; and from the beginning think what may be the end.”
I truly believe we need to find constructive ways to put fear back into the climbing experience. It isn't a tennis match.
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phylp
Trad climber
Millbrae, CA
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From the perspective of "take initiative to make things better", I would challenge anyone who is reading this thread to think if there is a way they can personally make a difference going forward.
I just sent an email to the manager of my local climbing gym, asking them if news of this incident would be valuable to pass on in their advanced youth programs. If you sell climbing equipment, work at a gym, teach or climb with younger climbers, you can help.
Yes, risk cannot be eliminated from climbing, but as a community we can look for ways to help each other.
Phyl
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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JL wrote: Attempts to eliminate all risk from climbing is logical but also a move in removing all adventure and seriousness from the sport. It's a very tricky business, and another reminder that attempts to reduce climbing to merely physical movement is probably impossible so long as Old Man Gravity is out there.
I agree for a adult making his own choices...for a 12 year old in a group setting, every piece of gear, harness and rope should be checked by a qualified adult.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Rgold wrote: I truly believe we need to find constructive ways to put fear back into the climbing experience. It isn't a tennis match.
Isn't that a choice a person should make and not a community of climbers?
There are thousands of routes with a high pucker factor still waiting to be done.
This was 12 year old kid out with a group of other kids and adults. The adults f*#k-up. Period.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Rgold wrote: I truly believe we need to find constructive ways to put fear back into the climbing experience. It isn't a tennis match.
Isn't that a choice a person should make and not a community of climbers?
In principle, yes. But "the community," whatever that is, can try to make sure people realize what the choices really are. I'm not at all sure everyone involved fully realizes the choices they are making, and the standard disclaimers, "climbing is dangerous..." seem to have little or no effect.
There are thousands of routes with a high pucker factor still waiting to be done.
Sure, but I don't see what that has to do with the issues at hand. The problems we are speaking of are the ones that occur when no "pucker factor" is apparent.
This was 12 year old kid out with a group of other kids and adults. The adults f*#k-up. Period.
But, if true, why exactly did the adults f*#k up? Contemplating this brings you right back to my comments.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Richard...5.11/5.12 r/x is pretty easy to figure out, at least to me it is. The adults in the group blew it a child lost his life. Really sad.
Maybe see you in October for the reunion.
Richard wrote: But, if true, why exactly did the adults f*#k up? Contemplating this brings you right back to my comments.
Checking the equipment/quickdraws.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Looking forward to that Bob. Be well.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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I'm doing great Richard...looking forward to seeing everyone. Hope you doing well too?
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
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When I took the driver's ed. course in high school, I had a total nutcase for a teacher. All he did was scare us. The whole curriculum was about the different ways to die in a car. I thought it was a waste of time since all that stuff should be obvious. Well, I was only 16.
When I learned rock climbing I had no one to teach me and there was no gym or even a real climbing area nearby. I found a book, Learning to Rock Climb, by Michael Laughman, starring this really burly looking lady who posed for the pictures. Then I got piece of goldline, maybe 5 biners and started drafting my friends as belayers. I had no clue at all but I was aware of that and of the responsibility I was taking on. As time went on, it seemed I was always doing the leading and climbing with people who had less experience. Pushing your limits as a trad leader is a very conservative way to learn, and served me well.
Now you can just take a lesson at a gym, plug into a gri gri, and go for it. The beginners today start in a different place and learn totally different things. Plus the social scene is like a party, instead of gathering up the courage to do an onsight lead, that's scary.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Don wrote: Now you can just take a lesson at a gym, plug into a gri gri, and go for it. The beginners today start in a different place and learn totally different things. Plus the social scene is like a party, instead of gathering up the courage to do an onsight lead, that's scary.
This kid was 12 years old...with adults in the party. Comparing the way you learned and "your courage" has nothing to do with this situation.
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michaeld
Sport climber
Sacramento
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The kid was warming up. 8 of 12 Draws failed. Courage? You're a tw#t.
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
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Sorry, did not mean to offend anyone. My point was only that there is a more serious attitude toward trad climbing than sport. Peace.
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Dr. Christ
Mountain climber
State of Mine
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I almost died several times in my first few years of climbing (age 17). Unfinished knots due to migraines brought on by dehydration, rock fall, pulling gear, improperly threaded belay devices, etc. We had no adults to check anything... just some beer, weed, and cid. We lucked out.
People get way too lazy at sport crags these days. I've seen so many people start tying their knots, then do something else, then discuss beta for 3 min, then finish their knots. The whole time I am on high alert, watching them like a hawk until they finish the knot. I'm the stressed out jackass who points out they should ALWAYS finish tying or untying their knots before doing anything else. "Yeah, I know..." then they send their 5.14 whatever. I also check every fixed draw as I clip it... I've found several with webbing worn 3/4 of the way through from rubbing on the rock that people were still taking whippers on... they had no idea. I replaced them.
This is really sad. It was a simple mistake with horrific consequences. This sport has horrific consequences and it is easy to make simple mistakes.
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darkmagus
Mountain climber
San Diego, CA
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the frontal cortex involved in decision making and judgement, is not fully developed until 25 years of age
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Dr.Christ wrote: This is really sad. It was a simple mistake with horrific consequences. This sport has horrific consequences and it is easy to make simple mistakes.
Do you have any idea what happened in this situation?
The kid was 12 years old with adults in the group.
What really sad is the climbers here comparing their (trad background) to this situation. Makes me ill.
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Dr. Christ
Mountain climber
State of Mine
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Yeah, I have some idea of what happened in this situation, but I wasn't there so I don't know exactly. I don't think it helps anything to assign blame at this point, other than for others to learn from the mistake.
If someone gets hurt at the crag, I generally blame everyone in the area... which is why I usually leave areas that take on the casual party scene atmosphere typical at many crags... especially if younguns are around.
I think those comparing it to their trad experience are just too deeply rooted in their "trad is way more pure/serious/extreme/real than spurt climbing" mentality... which always makes me ill, regardless of the context.
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