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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
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Jun 25, 2013 - 10:39am PT
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Elcapinyoass you should keep that dream of climbing Nameless Tower once things have calmed down. I had a great time in Pakistan and found the people welcoming and friendly. It does help if you wear a shalwar kamiz. The pashtuns have white skin like Europeans and don't look much different.
In war zones, You always need to think how to get from point A to point B, just like you're climbing. You need an escape plan. The main thing though is to get to know the locals and make sure your guides are ok with any illegal groups. That's what guides/fixers are for. News reporters know how to work in these areas, most climbers probably don't. Someone mentioned this a few posts ago, that most wild parts of the world are home to all sorts of criminals, so leave your false sense of security in Boulder, Santa Cruz, etc.
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AP
Trad climber
Calgary
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Jun 25, 2013 - 11:47am PT
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The Pakistani govt does not control the tribal areas in the West. Even the Brits couldn't and didn't even try. The govt controls the main roads and borders, the rest is tribal law.
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Social climber
SLO, Ca
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Jun 25, 2013 - 12:01pm PT
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I too had a great time there and thought the people were great. However, we had major interruptions, were in the middle of some sketch political upheaval and got stuck there because of militant unrest. It's definitely not like going trekking in Nepal.
I'm pretty white looking and drew a lot of attention, in many places they just don't see many or any folks from the west.
Crazy place!
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Jun 25, 2013 - 01:07pm PT
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These are all interesting points. But if you take the aggression out of the equation, nobody gets dead. You'd think somebody would recognize that this is the one factor that if managed, directly, might reduce the carnage. Trying to manage it at the level of "reasons and causes" is clearly not working.
We'll all have to face, at some time and place, the fact that we'll give up most anything, but never our "right" to exercise our aggression - then brace yourself for all the "reasons," flag waving and heroic babble.
The only things that seem to avert aggression are food and education, but trying to accomplish these through imposition (aggression), has a checkered record and staggering body count. Fact is, regardless of what we say, we are fine with that body count because we keep the hammer coming, and blame the other guy.
And around and around we go . . .
JL
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ms55401
Trad climber
minneapolis, mn
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Jun 25, 2013 - 01:32pm PT
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China is a major ally and foreign aid donor to Pakistan. Killing their nationals will have far reaching ramifications.
Yeah, China is majorly pissed-off. In its view, only Beijing gets to kill Chinese nationals.
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Afterseven
Trad climber
Nome, AK
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Jun 25, 2013 - 02:15pm PT
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"Operation Iraqi Freedom continues to Shock and Awe..." Yea...because, of course, no one had ever been killed by Islamist Radicals before Op. Iraqi Freedom in 2003. oh wait, nevermind....
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Jun 25, 2013 - 02:37pm PT
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because, of course, no one had ever been killed by Islamist Radicals before Op. Iraqi Freedom in 2003 Certainly not from Iraq.
Islamist radicals were a serious threat to the Saddam / Baa'thist regime and certainly were not aided by them. Saddam had plenty of means to suppress them and did. We created the environment for them to exploit Iraq when we destroyed the government and infrastructure in Shock and Awe of 2003. These are the facts.
Don't conflate Iraq/Taliban/Afghanistan the way the Shrub administration deliberately did. I'm not making any apologies for Saddam's brutal thuggery.
Back to the real problem in Pakistan.
Pakistan is not a backward country even now during it's internal conflicts. They have a large number of well educated and skilled technocrats. They figured out how to make nuclear weapons and export the technology. They have the 8th largest military in the world. They have had thousands of military casualties fighting the insurgents along the Afghan border. Their tourist trade is being wrecked by their terrorists.
In short, Pakistan is just as worried about this attack as anyone else. What they can/will do about it remains to be seen.
They don't like us throwing missiles from drones at our insurgent targets within their borders. Partly out of nationalism, partly precisely because it gives their insurgents an excuse for violence and helps them recruit.
Earlier someone criticized Pakistan for flying the bodies out by helicopter and ambulance. That it was somehow a huge expenditure of money that could have been spent elsewhere. The Pakistan economy is 27th in the world by personal purchasing power. Compared to the Pakistan economy it was a pittance.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Jun 25, 2013 - 03:22pm PT
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Food and education have no bearing on placating aggression.
Not true in the real world. Those of us who are educated and full are not likely going to be in fist fights today or tomorrow. Instead, we'll have the kids act out our aggression for us. That's called "projective identifiction."
And Ron, you're getting lost in the action - reaction loop, and are using it as a "reason" to meet aggression with aggression. As an aggressive person myself I understand this dynamic perfecly. I'm simply saying that the cycle must be broken to ever be transcended, and people are terrified of being done away with their right to kill you back. That's what I meant by - round and round we go.
We can always find good reasons to keep killing each other. The goofy part is that when we see killing sans "good reasons" we call it insane. In fact all killing is at some level insane. We just have nice myths to tell ourselvs and others per why we need to keep the sabers flashing. We love bloodsport. Few admit it, and the really deluded insist that we cut a vein because "you made me do it."
JL
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Jun 25, 2013 - 03:43pm PT
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Largo,
I think the difficulty comes because there are certain situations where a violent, overwhelming response is the only survival option. World War II comes to mind. The problem is differentiating that situation from one requiring restraint, rather than a fight to the death.
Mere retaliation, however, seems to beget only counter-retaliation. There I agree with you. To me the issue becomes whether eradicating the Taliban/Al Qaeda terrorist threat is worth the cost in reduced freedom and wildly escalating violence. To use my economists' language, what is the optimal amount of terrorism?
I have no answer, except to say that no matter how much the Pakistani Taliban alleges otherwise, their actions remain despicable.
John
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jun 25, 2013 - 03:45pm PT
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It seems to me that contrary to what one might expect there is an increase in ethnic and religious identification (tribalisim in a word) throughout the World. It''s more than a question of when "they" will stop hating "us", it's more complicated than the currently popular Muslims vs. the West scenario. Hatred and violence can and will suddenly erupt anywhere between different "tribes."
We are far from immune from this unpleasantness.....the growing divide between groups here at home and the radicalization of some of those groups should be watched carefully.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Jun 25, 2013 - 04:03pm PT
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We are far from immune from this unpleasantness.....the growing divide between groups here at home and the radicalization of some of those groups should be watched carefully.
Words of wisdom, Jim.
My mind keeps returning to the last time I was in the Middle East, in 1970. While I was reading about the Stoneman Meadow riots in a French Language newspaper in Beirut, I was struck by how much more peaceful it was there than back home in California. My uncle's summer flat that he rented in the mountains had a Druze family beneath them, and a Maronite Christian family above. (My family is Armenian Evangelical -- a minority of a minority of a minority . . .) Yet it seemed that all in that village were plain old neighbors who not only got along, but actually liked each other.
Still, that undercurrent of tribalism was beginning to surface. Even then, my relatives there would not let me visit Tyre, because there were too many Palestinian refugees there. No one, it seemed, wanted them around. First, they were Shi'ites, whereas the majority of Muslims in Lebanon had, historically, been Sunnis.
When I scratched beneath the surface, though, no one was really Lebanese. My family were Armenians first and foremost. They interacted with non-Armenians only by necessity. The Christians were divided: the Maronites and the Armenians weren't exactly buddies, and the two factions of the Orthodox Armenian church weren't either. In retrospect, when civil war broke out in 1975, I should not have been surprised that the factional disintegration made the Balkans look like harmony personified.
It greatly distresses me to see the same thing happening here. We've made such a fine art of dividing ourselves that we've neglected what unites us. I guess the Youngbloods got it right back when you and I started climbing in 1967. "Come on people now, smile on your brother everybody get together and love one another right now!"
If only I knew how.
John
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EmEl
Trad climber
Montana
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Jun 25, 2013 - 04:17pm PT
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Everything about this is so wrong.
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command error
Trad climber
Colorado
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Jun 25, 2013 - 04:34pm PT
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What!!!!!? Ignore the news for a few and find terrorists dressed as cops
shooting climbers in their tents! Time to crank up the volume on the crusade against those inbred perverts.
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
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Jun 25, 2013 - 04:35pm PT
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I think the difficulty comes because there are certain situations where a violent, overwhelming response is the only survival option.
This basically works, to kill every last man, woman and child. It's what I do for a living, litigating thousands of summary execution cases. It's a war crime to send commandos into someone's home and kill them, when you could also arrest them. Tens of thousands were killed in Vietnam this way in the Phoenix Program, and it's part of every war. So is every kind of terrorism - the sad fact is that killing civilians in a dramatic way is a highly effective technique. For example, if you fire a missile at a wedding attended by a known Taliban commander, and kill 50 people, you send a strong message to everyone to stay away from known Taliban members. That's terrorism since the purpose is to scare the civilians and get them to not support the Taliban.
The main example of success using this method was in Guatemala, where literally every last family member of every insurgent was killed like that. But, if you don't kill every last one of them, the survivors will hate you forever, and get their revenge.
Not trying to give anyone a lecture on morality, just saying that the overwhelming survival response you advocate only works if you have a 100% kill rate. You'll never teach anyone the lesson you'd like to teach them. Just ask the Israelis, they always advocate an overwhelming response, and it always just leads to a reprisal. And so it goes ...
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Jun 25, 2013 - 04:39pm PT
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Don, it seemed to work against Nazi Germany and Militarist Japan, without killing every last one of them. I stated it the way I did because a "fight to the death" may be the only way to end violence with violence, so I wanted to make that option as stark as possible.
John
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
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Jun 25, 2013 - 04:55pm PT
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That kind of surrendering isnt even possible anymore. In modern wars, the enemy government is destroyed and put on trial. Iraq and Afghanistan are better examples than WWII. Those days are long gone - as are most of the human rights concepts that emerged from WWII. Now you have to deal with people's individual motivations, and revenge is pretty much universal.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Jun 25, 2013 - 05:07pm PT
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The problem now is that we have no government to arrest and put on trial, the way we did in Nuremberg and Tokyo at the end of World War II. The Taliban attack, the Al Qaeda attacks, and virtually all of the other terrorist attacks involve ideologies, not governments.
John
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AP
Trad climber
Calgary
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Jun 25, 2013 - 05:55pm PT
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Pakistan used to be a big sponsor of terrorism, and some of the ISI may still do. They had fun when their proxies were killing the Indian army in Kashmir or Russians in Afghanistan. It got out of control however and they have been experiencing blowback of the worst kind.
There is the educated part of Pakistan but there are huge numbers of poor illiterate folks, and a number of them have been sucked into the terrorist world because the real world holds no future.
I am sure drone strikes have served to turn many moderates into extremists.
How would the USA react if other countries were fuk**ng about within your borders?
Like all wars these days most of the dead are innocent.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Jun 25, 2013 - 06:02pm PT
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But i know that in the ME thousands of years of war practice has been the history So let's do a reality check on the North American - Western European nexus.
The Crusades 1 through 9 from 1095 - 1272 (157 years) "Religious War"
Christians fought 9 Crusades attempting to destroy Jews, Muslims, heretics and other Evil Doers as well as to "liberate" the Holy Land which had been relatively peaceful for 400 years of Muslim rule. In the First Crusade Jews and Muslims fought together to defend Jerusalem (any irony here), and lost.
The "Holy Land" is holy to Christians, Jews AND Muslims.
In Europe, nearly continuous warfare since the "french" William the Conqueror invaded England in 1066 to 1880
With settlement of the Americas: systematic extermination of the native peoples by Spain, England and finally the US.
Our Civil War: 1861-1865 approx 600,000 dead.
The War To End All Wars. 1914 - 1918 Military only: 10 million dead, 8 million missing.
Russian Revolution and Civil War 1917 - 1923 Deaths still unknown. Likely about a million
Stalin Purges 1927 - 1930s estimated 10 million "excess deaths"
Spanish Civil War 1936 - 1939 500,000 killed. First use of indiscriminate civilian bombing by the Franco Fascists (with German supplied aircraft). Guernica destroyed.
Nazi holocaust: (Jews, Poles, Communists, disabled, slavs, homosexuals) 1938 - 1945 about 13 million men, women and children (total still unknown) "Religious War"
WWII in Europe: something like 30 million dead (excluding holocaust and asia) 85 million total world wide.
Then there's Vietnam: between 1 and 2 million dead.
Can't blame it all on the Middle Easterners (Muslims)
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