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steve shea
climber
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Feb 13, 2013 - 02:50pm PT
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There is commission and omission. Those with knowledge of the crime yet do nothing are just as guilty as those who commit the crime. This is the most disturbing part. Even nuns in some dioceses knew and did nothing. Perversion was acknowledged and officially swept under the carpet as long ago as the 40's. Read about Mauciel and Pope Pius? This guy was celebrated by the church hierarchy and traveled the catholic world buggering kids and condoning like behavior in "far flung" dioceses by the catholic clergy. I'm done.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Feb 13, 2013 - 03:07pm PT
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When I was nine, I wanted to be the first American pope (I was an altar boy). When I was ten I wanted to be an astronaut. Always reaching for the stars.
Who gives a flying eff? I was born, baptized and raised a Catholic, until 13 .Then I became an agnostic, and now an atheist.
He was not a good pope for the Catholic Church. But then, who has been? If I sound cynical, yes.
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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Feb 13, 2013 - 03:19pm PT
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I'm compelled to defer some judgement to the discretion of the Roman Catholic congregation. Perhaps most believe divine power comes from God...but without the presence, affirmation and funding of laity the Roman church could not endure.
Aside from the killing of innocents, I don't believe any crime enrages human beings more than child sexual abuse. I don't believe Catholics vary in their outrage to such abomination.
If Catholic people came to realization that the institution was indeed brimming with predatory priests and surfeit with clandestine maneuvering and arcane corruption...couldn't we foresee a critical mass in which members left en masse? That doesn't seem to be happening...
Many in the Protestant, Muslim and secular world would like the Roman Catholic church destroyed...that will only happen if nonclerical Catholics allow it happen...and I don't believe it will happen if principled clerics predominate, reform continues and devout members continue finding merit in the faith.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Feb 13, 2013 - 03:29pm PT
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Let there be women priests and let priests marry. I am just speculating, but those two issues would help a lot towards predatory male pedophile priests. Maybe I am wrong.
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John M
climber
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Feb 13, 2013 - 03:41pm PT
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If Catholic people came to realization that the institution was indeed brimming with predatory priests and surfeit with clandestine maneuvering and arcane corruption...couldn't we foresee a critical mass in which members left en masse? That doesn't seem to be happening...
I don't believe that the church has gone far enough in its investigation. It used the theology of forgiveness to keep one of the leaders involved in the coverup in power and even allowed him to become pope.
The whole brimming argument just takes the emphasis away from what needs to happen. There needs to be a purge at the highest ranks. But I doubt that will ever happen. The membership is already appeased. This is why many people consider religious people to be simple sheep without the ability to discern evil for themselves. But then,.. most people are sheep. All that you have to do is look at politics in America today to see that.
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John M
climber
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Feb 13, 2013 - 03:42pm PT
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Let there be women priests and let priests marry. I am just speculating, but those two issues would help a lot towards predatory male pedophile priests. Maybe I am wrong.
Unlikely this would help. There are plenty of married pedophiles.
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Feb 13, 2013 - 04:44pm PT
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I've never heard of a group of scientists protecting pedophiles simply because they are members of the scientific community and share their same beliefs. That would be despicable.
There are plenty of cases where leaders of the Catholic Crutch defended/protected pedophiles because they are members the same religion. Yet people still bow down to the church leaders who defended/protected the despicable fukers. That is reason enough to pass judgement on the group as a whole.
But the pope did not require that Roman Catholic leaders be disciplined for past mistakes as some victims were hoping, nor did he clarify what critics see as contradictory Vatican rules that they fear allow abuse to continue unpunished.
THAT is fuking despicable.
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Seamstress
Trad climber
Yacolt, WA
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Feb 13, 2013 - 05:29pm PT
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I never want to be interpretted as protecting priests who abuse children from our justice system.
I did attempt to point out that there are many good works and purposes that the church serves. Without the Catholic church here, there would be no winter homeless shelter expansion, fewer food banks, no school supplies for impoverished children - among the programs I personally donate my time to. That does not justify priests harming children.
I attempted to explain some other factors - besides fear of liability - that might be an impediment to the church from acting as many people might think is natural. The forgiveness and redemption culture gives them a particularly hard time in properly dealing with intractable pedophiles. Absolutely they should have focused on their redemption WHILE they were serving their secular penance in our justice system. The congregation would not think that was breaching the sanctityt of confession but meeting its obligation.
While most people think that the church has done nothing ever to protect children, that isn't 100% true, particularly where I live. The practices within our church have changed radically in the last 10 years. Anyone who has any contact with a child for church activities must undergo a background check and attend safe training. That doesn't erase sins of the past, but it is action to prevent sins in the future. It is the main reason why we the number of youth activities that we have is much lower than the past. Let's take the youth group skiing, climbing, camping - training and background checks required - now where are the chaperones? I understand that it is necessary given the damage in trust.
As a catholic, I do feel the condemnation that people show to my relgion and community. I have no problem with shining a light on evil. I do have a problem with treating all catholics as evil, regressive, mindless fundamentalists. I was raised to form a moral compass guided by the church and to use it.
I should have known that the thread was really an invitation to pile up on catholics and the pope. Any comments to describe why the groupthink could be so off - not welcome. Punish everyone, not just the guilty. Instead of reform - kill it.
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Feb 13, 2013 - 05:40pm PT
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Last week, a psychiatrist who treated a priest decades ago in a German archdiocese run by the future pope said he had repeatedly warned that the priest, who was accused of sexually abusing boys, should never work with children again. The priest was re-assigned to parish work almost immediately after his therapy began, and one of Benedict’s deputies at the time has taken responsibility for that decision. Less than five years later, the priest was accused of molesting other boys, and in 1986 was convicted of sexual abuse.
The pope did not address that case in his letter to the Irish, nor did he call for Cardinal Sean Brady, the head of the Irish church, to resign. Cardinal Brady said last week that he would step down if the pope asked, after revelations that he took part in a church investigation in 1975 in which two children were forced to sign secrecy oaths.
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“There’s a strong tendency to approach this as a problem of faith, when it is a problem of church management and a lack of accountability,” said Terrence McKiernan, founder and president of BishopAccountability.org, which tracks church records on abuse cases.
People allow poor "management and a lack of accountability" to continue, simply because they believe the same fairy tales. Absurd and despicable. How can anyone in their right mind defend an institution like that?
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/21/world/europe/21pope.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Feb 13, 2013 - 06:01pm PT
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Mechrist and Seamstress, I have known a lot of good Catholic priests (and not so good nuns, but grades 1-7 in Catholic school can do that, the lay teachers were the best).
The truth and the answers lie somewhere between. But one has to recognize that the Catholic Church and the Vatican, covered up a lot. Shame on them.
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Seamstress
Trad climber
Yacolt, WA
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Feb 13, 2013 - 06:25pm PT
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Yes. It is by examining our weaknesses and addressing them that we get stronger. There is a difference between justice and vengeance, fixing institutions and destroying them. It is somehow OK for many to have a feeding frenzy because it is about Catholicism.
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Feb 13, 2013 - 06:53pm PT
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It is somehow OK for many to have a feeding frenzy because it is about Catholicism.
You don't think it would be a feeding frenzy if it were FLDS or Scientology or Disneyland or any other fantasy world peddler that ACTIVELY protected known child molesters?
You hold your religion in such high regard you are incapable of seeing just how fuked up the institution is, simply because you share the same fantasies. If the same thing happened with Disneyland I suspect it would be shut down.
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ncrockclimber
climber
The Desert Oven
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Feb 13, 2013 - 06:56pm PT
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"Piling on" is a nice way to characterize the catholic church as a victim here, but what you are really doing is minimizing the blatantly evil actions of the leadership of the church. Think about this; the Pope, the senior leader of the church to which you belong, knew about priests that were raping boys. Instead of turning them over to local authorities (or even punishing them within the church system), he protected them from prosecution and put them in positions where they would have the opportunity to molest more children. This is standard practice in the church, and yet you still support it and count yourself a member.
All large and diverse organizations have good and bad aspects. However, when the leadership, all the way down to the parish level, condones and supports pedophilia, then that organization is corrupt. No amount of charitable work can wash over the tacit and active support of child molestation. You know what is going on here, yet you try to wash over the church's pro-pedophile stance by claiming that its good works exceed its evil, and in the process you become a supporter of the rape of children. I know you don't want to see it that way, but it is true.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Feb 13, 2013 - 08:10pm PT
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Yes. It is by examining our weaknesses and addressing them that we get stronger. There is a difference between justice and vengeance, fixing institutions and destroying them. It is somehow OK for many to have a feeding frenzy because it is about Catholicism.
Steamstress, I think Catholicism comes in for such harsh criticism, because of two factors:
1. It has stood for protection of the weak, particularly children, and
2. It has done everything possible to stonewall investigations.
I live in LA, Cardinal Mahony's parish. It is clear that he actively participated in shielding abusers from the police. This took place over decades, and only a week ago, did the papers that demonstrated his actions, which he has fought in the courts for YEARS, did this come out.
The Church is complicit in all this, because they set no standard.
Is the abuse of children a mortal sin? Is it important?
Why, then, do some of these offenders, and their administrative defenders, remain part of the Church? While at the same time, a priest is defrocked for having a relationship with the woman he loves?
One action is disgusting and felonious.....the other is celebrated as God's plan for men and women.
Any slack that the Church might have, it LONG AGO squandered. The assumption at this point, based upon what it has done for decades, is that anything it has to say is a lie, told only to serve itself.
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ncrockclimber
climber
The Desert Oven
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Feb 13, 2013 - 08:19pm PT
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Good posts Ken.
If one Catholic priest was a molester or one crime was covered up by a small group, it would still be terrible but not a condemnation of the entire church. However, when the leadership of the church at ALL levels condones and supports, through its actions, the rape of children, it is corrupt. Anyone who remains a member of the church after they know about this is a supporter of pedophilia.
I know that a lot of you catholics out there do not want to hear this, but it is true. The catholic church has become NAMBLA hiding behind the veneer of religion, and the complacency and ignorance of its members.
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John M
climber
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Feb 13, 2013 - 08:21pm PT
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The practices within our church have changed radically in the last 10 years. Anyone who has any contact with a child for church activities must undergo a background check and attend safe training. That doesn't erase sins of the past, but it is action to prevent sins in the future.
How exactly does this stop pedophile priests who are sanctioned by the church? The fox is guarding the henhouse. You have done nothing about the fox. You have a serious problem which you haven't addressed yet. The pope is a prime example. He helped create the the system of hiding pedophiles.
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Feb 13, 2013 - 08:27pm PT
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Don't pretend this is the first transgression of the Crutch. They have a pretty fuking pathetic track record.
"quoniam punitio non refertur primo & per se in correctionem & bonum eius qui punitur, sed in bonum publicum ut alij terreantur, & a malis committendis avocentur"
"for punishment does not take place primarily and per se for the correction and good of the person punished, but for the public good in order that others may become terrified and weaned away from the evils they would commit."
But hey, the fantasy world they sell is pretty cool... heaven and all that sh#t.
Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world. John 4:1
And Jesus answered them, “See that no one leads you astray. For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and they will lead many astray. Matthew 24:4-5
Judas didn't betray Jesus, Peter did.
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John M
climber
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Feb 13, 2013 - 08:35pm PT
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In Sacramento the church had to sell a mobile home park that had been donated to the church on the condition that it keep the rents low for people on fixed incomes. The leadership in the Vatican created the problem, but they absolved themselves of having to pay for it.
Why didn't they sell one of their artworks in the Vatican to pay for it, rather then forcing retired people out of their homes?
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