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WBraun
climber
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Jun 18, 2006 - 12:36am PT
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Not true
The most learned man can defeat any logic that tries to disprove the existence of God and at the same time prove and reveal the existence of God.
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phoolish
Boulder climber
Athens, Ga.
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Jun 18, 2006 - 01:36am PT
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Largo:
I don't understand what you mean by 'scholastic mental construct.' I generally avoid questions of philosophy on account of an impenetrable vocabulary of abstraction, and this is a big part of why.
Anyway, I figure that if there is some external purpose to life, living my life would suggest it to me or somebody would figure it out and tell me about it. Lots of people try to, but their explanations fall into generalities that I can't follow (I'm fundamentally a pretty simple guy, so it might be my fault here) or into things that make no sense when I try to stick it to my experience.
We might just be defining things differently. The universe for me is an awesome and strange place, full of things that are interesting, and I have neither need or urge to look outside of it for anything.
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Ouch!
climber
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Jun 18, 2006 - 01:44am PT
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Perhaps one can convince himself and maybe some other people too but he has proven nothing. The proof comes after the talking, in the dying. You will know everything or nothing at all.
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Bruce Morris
Social climber
Belmont, California
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Jun 18, 2006 - 02:11pm PT
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It wasn't the Grand Wizard's visits with the fat chicks that really miffed me. It was that fact that they egged my car and tried to break into my house and steal my skill saw and tools. I guess putting a new door on the house was sinful, "frippery" that was likely to raise their tax rates. When I had a new number painted on the sidewalk out front, one of the coven - evidently - came out and scratched out the letters. But I think my efforts with City Hall are paying off: they're out clearing brush this weekend, which makes me think they've finally been cited for fire code violations. Praise the Lord!
I think they're working some scam where they pool all their property and say it belongs to the Church. That way they're trying to evade paying property taxes. Don't worry - we're looking into THE PROBLEM.
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Hootervillian
climber
the Hooterville World-Guardian
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Jun 18, 2006 - 02:23pm PT
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well the way i interpret quantum theory, everything is a scholastic mental construct.
but as 'scholastic mental constructs' go, State-sponsored pagan patriarchal monotheism with a self-fulfilling rapture prophecy seems pretty threatening.
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Jun 18, 2006 - 02:34pm PT
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Stendal--
I would say there is no external reason to life, and if you ever came up with one it would be an abstraction. But none of this is easy.
First, you have to ask the question (what is all of this) and though you don´t get an answer in the regular way, you end up somewhere where the question is no longer important. Trying to explain away or qualify or reframe the question is not going to lead you anywhere, IME.
JL
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Ouch!
climber
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Jun 18, 2006 - 04:07pm PT
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"many holy and spiritual persons"
Please define these terms. What makes one holy? Is it necessary to believe in ghosts to be spiritual? Are they defined by I have this belief, therefore it is.
Are these just not more human inventions?
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More Air
Big Wall climber
S.L.C.
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Jun 18, 2006 - 04:14pm PT
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Smidogg:
I don't think picking out the worst-of-the-worst Christians and then making a negative blanket assessment about all Christians is much of an "educated" statement. While you're waiting for a so-called Christian doctor to refuse treatment to a homosexual person, there are, as we speak, thousands of Christian MD's who ARE treating homosexuals.
Smitty, what would you think if someone were to describe you, only mentioning the bad things about you, and none of your good attributes? Would that be an "educated" assessment?
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Bruce Morris
Social climber
Belmont, California
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Jun 18, 2006 - 05:10pm PT
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Arthur Schopenhauer wouldn't have thought so: All idealisms are projections of self-interest (i.e. the ego). No exit, no escape. That's the philosophic impasse that Gide and Sartre faced during the next generation. Look what German idealism led to? Ugh! I'm hungry. I'm going downstairs and making a big sandwich . . .
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George_W_Bush
Big Wall climber
Crawford, TX
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Jun 18, 2006 - 06:07pm PT
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So,how many of you think I am one?
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phoolish
Boulder climber
Athens, Ga.
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Jun 18, 2006 - 08:28pm PT
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Largo:
I'm with you on the lack of external reason or meaning to life. Most pointedly, though, I'm with you on the fact that the question of whether there's an afterlife is fundamentally unimportant. For me, that's something not worth the effort of believing in. The problem arises, however, that whenever someone finds out that I don't believe in a god or a heaven or anything like that, I'm suddenly assailed and battered about for proofs and logics and the like. It was only your challenge that brought me into this discussion, even. How do I go about my life while being an athiest without falling into nihilism or whastever? It's easy. I do what most people do, but I don't have to think as much.
p.s. If you were going for the 19th century French novelist whose nom-de-plume is a homonym for my first initial + last name, then you left out an 'h.' He's Stendhal.
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Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
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Jun 18, 2006 - 08:49pm PT
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" The problem arises, however, that whenever someone finds out that I don't believe in a god or a heaven or anything like that, I'm suddenly assailed and battered about for proofs and logics and the like"
It's OK to assail and batter Fundamentalist Christians "about for proofs and logics and the like", as shown by most of the posts in this thread, but for The Love of Jesus don't subject the Athiests to the same.
I live right down the street from a big Mormon church (I think it's called a "Stake" or something like that) and a Jehova's Witness Kingdom Hall. Those are two of the religions most active in the effort to spread "the word" and "save souls" and they don't threaten me, as an non-believer, because I have my beliefs nailed down good.
I don't buy into the "Jesus = God" hustle, but the Christians don't frighten me.
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Jun 18, 2006 - 10:19pm PT
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Stendahl--
Not so fast. I´m not saying that there isn´t a meaning embedded in life, only that trying to find it in externals is not useful IME.
JL
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Mountain Man
Trad climber
Outer space
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Jun 19, 2006 - 01:20am PT
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One charming aspect of arguing with liberals, is they think they've won when they accuse you of being a fundamentalist. Or a racist, or a mysogynist, etc.
This such a useful tautology that I plan to use it frequently:
"I clocked you at 70 in a 25 zone."
What are you, a fundamentalist?
"Keep you hands off me!"
What are you, a fundamentalist?
It really doesn't win their arguments either, but you'd never know it, talking to them.
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Ouch!
climber
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Jun 19, 2006 - 02:33am PT
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The Jesus of the Bible was the original pinko liberal. The Jesus constructed by the Neo-Fundys is a mean mother of infinite cruelty.
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Mountain Man
Trad climber
Outer space
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Jun 19, 2006 - 02:38am PT
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Not in my church, no way, ever.
Such demonization hardly advances the discussion.
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Bruce Morris
Social climber
Belmont, California
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Jun 19, 2006 - 03:06am PT
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In a long, all-day diatribe to the American ambassador to Berlin, Hitler explained that he felt he was a reincarnation, at the same historical moment, of both Jesus and Julius Caesar. It sounds to me as though Hitler already was his own personal savior. What would your day be like if you woke up in the morning thinking and acting on those assumptions? Time to go soloing!
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Mountain Man
Trad climber
Outer space
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Jun 19, 2006 - 09:24am PT
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Hitler was a big believer in Darwin. The concept of survival of the fittest fueled his experiments in eugenics and genocide. The rest is history.
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Jay
Trad climber
Fort Mill, SC
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Jun 19, 2006 - 11:41am PT
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Smidogg –
“Like I stated before. I really hate it when people push their religion on me. Especially when politely telling them you are not interested does not work.”
They should have shown more respect. BTW, JWs aren’t Christians any more than Deists. It’s a different religion.
What you said is not a proof. If you think it is I have some salesmen who want your phone number. Anyone can find quotes on the internet to say just about anything they want. I can pull quotes from the bible to imply that God hates you. And some Christians would do that too; I would never. It would be wrong on many levels. I have a real problem with that kind of preaching.
Also, you might want to know that Deists, especially Thomas Jefferson (the mastermind of the Bill of Rights) held biblical precepts and law in high regard and used them as a basis for American law. Read the Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom. it was the model in which the Bill of Rights was based, written solely by Jefferson. He was at the time a Deist but became a devout Christian as he grew older (as a side note check out the Jefferson Bible that he wrote when he was a Deist). Also John Adams was a devout Unitarian (Christian). Washington, although a great leader, was not a major contributor to the Constitution. Not like Madison, Jefferson or Hamilton. He did refuse to be crowned king though which was the best decision a US President ever made.
I should point out that you are ignoring one of the main reasons behind freedom of speech and religion in this country. In Europe there were wars between the Catholics and the Protestants for over two centuries running. People had a hard time practicing their religion or saying anything about their beliefs without getting their heads chopped off. Part of this was because the bible was available to the average person for the first time since the Dark Ages. People started to point out that the current church leadership was wrong in doctrine and practice. That didn’t go over well and many people fled to America to live in peace. I know this only represents a part of the population in the late 1700s but it was a major factor for our founding fathers to do what they did. Good government is biblical. The job of which is to allow for the peaceful lives of its citizens. Christians should be protected by law to practice peaceful religion as the case is in this country. Preaching the Good News is peacful.
Furthermore my statements about freedom of speech (and I could bring up many others) is something you should consider more seriously. The Constitution is a little over 200 years old. The bible is 3500! I don’t have to explain to you that western civilization and western law is forever tied to the precepts in the bible. The US Constitution wasn’t written in a vacuum. This should be obvious to you if you are at all educated. Of all the principles you can find in the bible freedom and all its aspects may very well be the highest in regard to civil law. I can go on and on about this and you know it’s true. Freedom of speech is protected by biblical law so long as those who deem the bible important live up to it. This goes for believers and non believers alike. Sure there are other factors that contributed to the acceptance of the Bill of Rights and I will not deny them but the connection I present to you is a good one.
Correct me if I’m wrong here but I suspect that your problem is not with Christians or even fundamentalist Christians but “over-religious” zealots who think they have rights to rule your life (and there are plenty of non-Christian and non-religious people like that). The term fundamentalist by the way you use it is a pejorative and insulting. Many fundamentalist Christians of whom I am one would respect you in ways that you infer they don’t. They would treat you with dignity and honor and would try to be upright in every way they deal with you. Fundamentalists are just that, fundamental. If the Jesus said kill, they’d kill. But Jesus said to love. First love each other and then everyone else, even enemies. So that’s what they should do. (Oh BTW, he didn’t say lie down and let your enemies trample all over you.) If some Christians are truly disrespecting you then pull the bible out of their hand and open it for them. Be peaceable even if they aren’t. How else would you be any better? Show them what its like to be a faithful person and not just a person of faith.
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426
Sport climber
Buzzard Point, TN
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Jun 19, 2006 - 11:47am PT
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To make the leap from a belief in "Darwin" to "genocide" seems specious at best.
After all, wasn't "My Struggle" really filled with Xian quotes?
Yes, I believe it was...a small sample...
"I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.." -AH
Mandatory reading...
Of course, really Hitler was just cribbing of Martin Luther's seminal work, "The Jews and Their Lies" (1543).
going back to our founders......wasn't it Paine who tells, "All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian, or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit."
Hasn't everyone seen Jeffersons "annotated" bible around here?
Addit:
"For we know that the common law is that system of law which was introduced by the Saxons on their settlement in England, and altered from time to time by proper legislative authority from that time to the date of Magna Charta, which terminates the period of the common law. . . This settlement took place about the middle of the fifth century. But Christianity was not introduced till the seventh century; the conversion of the first christian king of the Heptarchy having taken place about the year 598, and that of the last about 686. Here then, was a space of two hundred years, during which the common law was in existence, and Christianity no part of it."-TJ
So there goes the "Jefferson" theory: common law and Xianity are mutually exclusive in TJ's eyes...read his later quotes, he was rather vehemently "non-Xian" in fact.
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