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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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A drunk driver does not intend specifically to kill people
Dead is dead. Who cares if the car was registered or not? The dead people?
DUI checkpoints really do any good? Comon Christ... you know better.
Somebody willfully drank way too much. In fact 50+ people died today because of it. Women and little children too. Oh wait... 50 are going to die tomorrow too. And the next day. HOLY SH#T... we're all gonna.... Maybe we need more checkpoints. Maybe we need to ban drinks over 20% alcohol.
You fear guns because you're taught to fear guns. It's not your fault. We've all been brainwashed by our bullshite media to a huge degree.
Not that guns aren't to be respected and more is certainly due in our culture. I'd LOVE to see more real training and education around the responsibility of owning, storing, and using firearms.
But real, positive change comes only through education, not more laws. It's slow and tedious process but it's the only way, in this country, to save lives.
Address the root of the issues. Why are people drinking too much and driving? Why are previously non-psychotic people going insane and killing themselves and random folks? Therein those questions lie the keys to real, workable solutions.
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tooth
Trad climber
B.C.
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Socialism has brought changes.
It outsorced so much of life away from our daily home lives.
Kids aren't born at home, it is out of the home.
Our elderly aren't taken care of at home, they live and die in nursing homes away from us - someone else's responsibility.
Now lazy people are more than willing to outsource their responsibility to the government for their own families protection. Let the cops keep me safe, oh, and the laws. Make laws to make me safe. Then I can keep my nose down in the rat race and do even less for my family myself...
It really appears to me like this is one more step in that direction. The people scoffing at how useful a gun in the home is are right. Because it wouldn't be for them. The ones with a gun for protection at home are right. Because they haven't given up the responsibility to be head of their households in that respect.
Sure, it is convenient to have a kid in a hospital in case something goes wrong - but the hospital is the most dangerous place to hang around since many people who go there end up catching something else while there and THAT kills more people than guns. It is also convenient to let cops and politicians take care of your security - just as long as you can delay the danger for 10 minutes until they show up.
What other aspects of life have Americans outsourced and what will be next? Raising children? (TV, daycare, etc.) Soon all that will be left will be the rat race, working for the man, with little time for what used to be normal life.
Man, if I were a dictator would I ever love to have 300million of those kind of subjects!
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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So, is this a good time to sell some guns? Lemme see, how much could I get for an HK-91? I won't tell you what it cost me in 1985.
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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consideration or planning of an act beforehand that shows intent to commit that act
Consideration or planning of WHAT? Killing people, or drinking and driving? Because, while driving drunk is bad, it is not as bad as killing dozens of people in a matter of minute.
blahblahbullsh#t, I forgot what a fuknard you are.
DUI checkpoints really do any good? Comon Christ... you know better.
Yes. Absolutely. 100% they do.
First sentence: "Fewer alcohol-related crashes occur when sobriety checkpoints are implemented..."
http://www.cdc.gov/motorvehiclesafety/impaired_driving/checkpoint.html
You fear guns because you're taught to fear guns.
I don't fear guns, I fear the general public having easy access to them... easier access than they have to cars.
Address the root of the issues. Why are people drinking too much and driving? Why are previously non-psychotic people going insane and killing themselves and random folks? Therein those questions lie the keys to real, workable solutions.
Do you mean to suggest that people just now started going crazy? What the fuk do you mean "previously non-psychotic?" Every one of the shooters showed signs. McVeigh, Loughner, Lanza, none of them should have had legal access to guns, but they did. The only reason this sh#t didn't happen in colonial times was they did have access to... wait for it... high capacity assault rifles. I think they may have rethought the wording if they had seen a bunch of school children taken out in minutes.
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Shack
Big Wall climber
Reno NV
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Excellent post tooth.
Some truth about crime statistics and guns
[Click to View YouTube Video]
There are so many stories like this that only get reported locally...
[Click to View YouTube Video]
And you guys keep saying the Sandy Hook shooter acquired his guns legally...
That is absolutely false. He was 20 years old and NOT legally allowed to be in possession of a hand gun. He stole them from him mother after he murdered her.
How is that legal?
He took 4 pistols into the school and had an AR15 that he left in the car!
Your "assault weapon" ban would have had no effect.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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He was 20 years old and NOT legally allowed to be in possession of a hand gun. He stole them from him mother after he murdered her.
The point is, they were purchased legally, not off the street, by someone who was clearly not responsible enough to store them properly. It is obvious there are plenty of people out there who should not have guns.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Your "assault weapon" ban would have had no effect.
Assault weapon ban? Who said anything about banning anything? How about making it AT LEAST as hard to get a gun as it is to get a driver's license? How about gun titles, like car titles? How about mental evaluations?
Shack, that video is absurd. No sh#t more crowded places have higher violent crime. That holds true with or without guns. The UK has a violent crime rate 3.5 times higher than that of the US... interesting because it has just over 3.5 times higher POPULATION DENSITY.
But the kicker, the UK has a murder rate of 1.3 and the US has a murder rate of 5.5 (despite the lower population density)... yet somehow guns have nothing to do with it?
Tell me, why would the UK have 3.5 times MORE violent crime than the US, but have 4 time LESS murders? Hint... think about the tools they have access to.
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TradEddie
Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
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Tell me, why would the UK have 3.5 times MORE violent crime than the US, but have 4 time LESS murders? Hint... think about the tools they have access to. To put the US vs UK murder rate another way, the 30 year long "Troubles" in Northern Ireland, regarded by some as a minor civil war is considered to have resulted in the deaths of about 3000 people. Depending on your geopolitical views, you could express this 100 murders per year for the entire UK (50 million), the island of Ireland (5 million), or Northern Ireland alone (1.5 million), but even that highest rate would be lower than most US cities. Politicians from the US worked tirelessly to help bring peace to Northern Ireland, while mostly ignoring the higher levels of violence in their own cities, or the contribution that lax US gun laws were making to the training and equipping of paramilitaries in NI.
Oddly enough, gun laws in the Republic of Ireland were more restrictive than in Northern Ireland. At the time, those laws annoyed me, but now I realize I was living in a country with 30-50 homicides a year, with gun homicides in the single digits, mostly spillover from NI.
I say it again, at this very moment a jihadist sleeper cell could be legally stocking up on assault weapons and high capacity magazines, training in public ranges, committing no detectable crime up until the moment they open fire on a football stadium, political rally or rock concert. If you think nineteen determined terrorists couldn't kill another 3000 people on US soil, think again. Maybe then, the absurdity of current laws would be apparent.
TE
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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I say it again, at this very moment a jihadist sleeper cell could be legally stocking up on assault weapons and high capacity magazines, training in public ranges, committing no detectable crime up until the moment they open fire on a football stadium, political rally or rock concert. If you think nineteen determined terrorists couldn't kill another 3000 people on US soil, think again. Maybe then, the absurdity of current laws would be apparent.
Again, if an organized "jihadist sleeper cell" were truly intent on killing Americans, they will. The means is a footnote. Surely you can understand 3,000 people were killed with boxcutters and planes when plenty of "more scary" guns were available. And it was a simple plan to boot.
Laws will not protect us from true evil intent. Understanding WHY "jihadist sleeper cells" are here wanting to kill innocents and dealing with that is the only solution. Sad Americans shuffling shoe-less past TSA agents is just silly. MAYBE we should stop bombing the crap out of different colored people overseas?
Trying to compare violence in Ireland or England to the US is equally absurd. I'm not sure if England has a "Camden, NJ" but we do... and multiply that by 50 or so. Check out Detroit too. Lovely this time of year. You'd have a better chance in Peru.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Drat I can't find it now and I'm out of time. Maybe later...
Anyway I read the other day that the WHO thinks that the murder rate in UK is significantly under reported because those Brits have become quite skilled at arranging for accidents, a fall down the stairs for example, and also are very good at using poison (which is often recorded as death due to natural causes.)
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Topmcocrane said: ..."when a totalitarian regime takes control of a society, as is currently happening, the first people they shoot are anyone that they know owns a gun. The current run on guns is a great way to get tabs on who likes to own guns, as it refreshes their tattered old databases. That's the only reason a government wants to register all the guns, so they can confiscate or kill all the gun owners. All the rest is just political posturing by a budding totalitarian government."
Stop the presses. Say what? Again? Huh?
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TradEddie
Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
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Again, if an organized "jihadist sleeper cell" were truly intent on killing Americans, they will. The means is a footnote. Surely you can understand 3,000 people were killed with boxcutters and planes when plenty of "more scary" guns were available. And it was a simple plan to boot. By the same logic currently applied to gun control, are you suggesting we should have absolutely no security checks on 40% of all flights?
Laws will not protect us from true evil intent. Understanding WHY "jihadist sleeper cells" are here wanting to kill innocents and dealing with that is the only solution. Sad Americans shuffling shoe-less past TSA agents is just silly. MAYBE we should stop bombing the crap out of different colored people overseas? Agreed, 200% if possible. However if laws don't reduce crime, why bother to have police or courts at all? This could solve the debt crisis.
Trying to compare violence in Ireland or England to the US is equally absurd. I'm not sure if England has a "Camden, NJ" but we do... and multiply that by 50 or so. Check out Detroit too. Lovely this time of year. You'd have a better chance in Peru.
What I'm saying is that the murder rate in Britain during a period regarded as minor civil war, was lower than the US in "peacetime".
Let me assure you that Britain and Ireland certainly have all the poverty, gangs and drugs and associated violence and social problems, the huge difference is access to guns, especially handguns. That is why there are no Camdens, there are many very shitty places to live, but even the shittiest of them has a lower murder rate than the affluent suburbs of a US City.
Eliminating gun violence is impossible, but even modest steps to restrict the diversion of legal guns would over time have a significant effect. Even a 5% drop would save hundreds of lives and thousands of injuries every year.
Guns are not like drugs, supply does not create demand, you can't grow guns in your basement, or cook them in a jar. Of course a black market would develop, but with limited supply (as opposed to the current unlimited supply) the price would go up significantly and every two-bit punk wouldn't be able to get one at a moments notice just to impress his GF. A recent straw purchase gun that killed a police officer in suburban Philadelphia was sold for just $100 profit, I think that says everything about the supply/demand of illegal guns right now. Maximum two years in prison for what was effectively conspiracy to murder also says a lot about how lightly this is taken.
Rant over, time for lunch.
TE
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Sredni Vashtar
Social climber
The coastal redwoods
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Ksolem
"Anyway I read the other day that the WHO thinks that the murder rate in UK is significantly under reported because those Brits have become quite skilled at arranging for accidents, a fall down the stairs for example, and also are very good at using poison (which is often recorded as death due to natural causes.) "
Even if you arent the original source thats a dumb statement to repeat. just go and stereotype 60 million people as sociopathic murderers skilled in the dark arts of defenestration and venefirous homicide. I also hear they are perfidious and cant be trusted, they make the USA do their bidding through guile and subterfuge. beware the brit for he is evil incarnate and dont let him look after granny or baby sit the wee ones.
lets make some black jokes and muslim ones too
much love, offended brit murderer
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Again, if an organized "jihadist sleeper cell" were truly intent on killing Americans, they will. The means is a footnote.
You really think increased airport security is doing NOTHING to increase safety? Hey, someone used a plane to kill a bunch of people... no point in implementing more airport security, it wouldn't do any good anyhow.
Pull your head out dude. Stricter gun regulations will absolutely help, just like drunk driving laws and check points ABSOLUTELY help reduce the number of deaths due to drunk driving. Why are you people so fuking ignorant and obstinate?
Laws will not protect us from true evil intent.
But laws restricting the tools at their disposal WILL HELP. If nukes or chemical weapons weren't illegal, the consequences of evil intent would be MUCH worse. If guns weren't AS available, the consequences wouldn't be AS bad. Guns are powerful tools... like cars, planes, etc... only they are tools designed specifically to KILL and are regulated LESS than those designed for more beneficial uses.
TradEddie, thanks for sharing your perspective. I'm sorry some people on here have their heads crammed so far up their asses that they will reject the historical FACTS in favor of... I don't even know what... fear the gov will come take their guns? Flippant conjecture that stricter gun regulations and mental health evaluations will do nothing to stop gun violence? Obsession with firearms stemming from a small penis? ?
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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"I hope, therefore, a bill of rights will be formed to guard the people against the Federal government as they are already guarded against their State governments, in most instances."
Thomas Jefferson to James Madison, 1788
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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couch, you have got to be kidding me!!!! You can amass as many guns as you want and YOU WON'T STAND A FUKING CHANCE against the federal government.
TJ's comments were applicable during a time when MEN fought wars, airstrikes had not even been conceived, and a drone was the property of a musical instrument.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Weschrist writes:
"couch, you have got to be kidding me!!!! You can amass as many guns as you want and YOU WON'T STAND A FUKING CHANCE against the federal government."
So how'd the Soviets get ran from Afghanistan? They're running us out of there, too.
You might laugh, but Americans have proven ourselves to be a very violent society ( go back and look at the stats posted on here, if you want proof ). More killings each weekend in Chicago than Afghanistan tells me The Federal Government will have its hands full if your scenario ("YOU...against the federal government ) ever plays out.
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
SLO, Ca
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Those comments were also made when the federal government had no army- the states had militias. Many founders abhorred the idea of a federal army for fear of tyranny. For better or worse, those fears have been soundly rejected and the federal government now has at its disposal the most powerful military force in history.
The protection from tyranny argument is totally delusional.
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Really Chaz, you want to compare the US to Afghanistan?
Citizens against the government is not my scenario. It is the scenario gun nuts evoke every time they harken back to the days of single shot muskets to defend their right to have easy access to modern day firearms.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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You can't have it both ways.
We can't, at the same time, be more violent and more dangerous than Northern Ireland during their civil war with the Brits, and then be expected to just roll over when actually given something to really fight about.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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THEN WHY THE FUK DO I HAVE TO TAKE MY SHOES OFF AT THE FUKING AIRPORT!
Christ, you're smarter than that. I know it. Do you really think such TSA nonsense prevents another attack? You know it doesn't. Comon.
Driving is a good example. Let's say 2-lane road divided by a double yellow. Each side is going 65mph. What prevents the guy coming the other way from swerving into your lane and killing you?
He doesn't want to. His will keeps you alive. Self preservation. Not wanting to hurt anyone else. Laws never enter into it. Kinda scary but that's how it works. Laws don't protect us. We protect each other through choices we make.
There are really two issues here that get all muddied up. See if you agree with me that they are different problems.
1)Wanton acts of malice/destruction. Terrorism, mass killings, etc. Generally not reflected in statistics.
2)Typical crime/violence. Gangs, robbery, etc... The vast majority of crimes reflected in stats.
Laws will never affect #1 in a free society. Not much will except understanding and fixing the underlying causes.
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