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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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May 28, 2006 - 10:51pm PT
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Mike, that's a bit harsh.
The brain and body do not work normally at that height.
People are left to die or for dead on that mountain, it has happened before, there are a number of bodies still there unless someone has moved them, and while it is true that it is a terrible situation, we who have not been there should at least have some respect for those who do go there, and have the experience to hopefully know when a rescue would be futile or not.
The reports say that the dead guy was almost frozen solid, that he could only move his eyes, and that people who were knowledgeable about this stuff knew the guy was a goner no matter what.
I feel like you do, sitting here, I know I would have had to try, but if I were there, I might not be able to even think clearly, or even get myself up and down the mountain, much less organize peopel in a complicated rescue attempt.
And I do have some training for that, and have done some minor rescue, although not at altitude and not ever close to danger myself while doing it.
I read both books about 96, and what impressed me most is that one guy was left for dead, and lived.
It's just not a situation to judge in black and white, unless you really do know what is at stake.
And I don't, so I can't, and neither can most of us.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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May 29, 2006 - 03:56am PT
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MikeL "I’m deeply uninspired by this idea that unless you’re been in this or that situation that you should STFU."
Everyone is totally welcome to say whatever they think. I just reserve the right to call them on it.
You're above 8500 meters on Everest and can barely breathe. Its 38 below zero and I have to believe some wind is blowing. How much debating and discussing is possible in those conditions?
Just because you can barely move yourself at that altitude doesn't mean you can move an inert body so easily. Just like you might be able to lead 11c in shorts and quickdraws but not with a 50 pound pack and wall rack.
Those who know otherwise can tell me if I'm wrong- Almost no guide is going to allow his client to separate from their party to initiate a rescue at that altitude, nor is he going to abandon his clients to do so himself. That would bring on a total liability due to a whole increased danger. Legally and in Safety. If anyone got hurt, the guide gets fired, the company sued, and the deaths could multiply.
Is that right and moral? Probably not. Is that reality? I bet it is cause they are doing business up there. Sure it's a business of facilitating people's dreams but if they have insurance or assets, the fact that it's a business makes them vulnerable and they have to accept responsibility for their own.
Just like that. I promise you that virtually no ambulance company would ever stop in the scenario I listed above as well.
Of course, you could stop all guiding on Everest, but that solo guy would still be dead up there.
If it was so easy to take bodies out of there, why are there all kinds of dead folk lying around frozen still? Wasn't it Conrad who found Mallory's partner up there with a well supported expedition. Not very easy to remove the body for a proper burial much less rescue.
Thinking that you know how you'll react in some crisis in extreme conditions is highly optimistic. Folks could certainly post up and say "I'd open up my parka and share body heat with him, then I'd throw him on my back and carry him for 500 yards before handing him off to a Sherpa for another 500 yards. It's downhill right?"
Yeah right.
The other thing I'd like folks to think about is this. Let's say 5 or 10 of those 40 people banded together in a heroic rescue attempt and half of them died when the body got out of control and pulled them off and the other half lost their toes.
What would the headline be then? What issue would we be discussing and what would we be saying about it?
Not sure I know the answer but I bet it would be quite different, yet the scenario is quite possible.
Peace
Karl
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MikeL
climber
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May 29, 2006 - 04:03pm PT
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It is harsh, Dirtineye. Having 40 people pass a guy in dire distress on the way up seems harsh, too. People could well believe there was no other choice, that anyone aware of the difficulties would have done the same thing.
Maybe so, maybe not.
These are the conditions that give rise to groupthink:
• High stress from external threats, with low hope of a better solution than the one offered by the leader(s)
• High group cohesiveness (sometimes due to strong external threats)
• The persuasive strength of the group's leader
Some symptoms of groupthink:
1. Unquestioned belief in the inherent morality of the group
2. Collective rationalization of group's decisions
3. Shared views about actors who not a part of the group, especially those who threaten the objectives of the group
4. Members withhold criticisms
5. An illusion of unanimity
6. Direct pressure on dissenters to conform to the demands of the group.
In contemporary history, the responsibilities of negative groupthink (in organizations, groups, nations) have been explicitly assigned to group leaders. Why? Milgram’s (1963) controversial research provides insights into why participants are willing to obey an authority who instructs participant to do something that conflict with their consciences. Milgram showed how, and to what extent, followers can be considered accomplices in questionable ethical behaviors.
Milgram said of his own research that, “stark authority was pitted against the [participants'] strongest moral imperatives against hurting others, and, with the [participants'] ears ringing with the screams of the victims, authority won more often than not. The extreme willingness of adults to go to almost any lengths on the command of an authority constitutes the chief finding of the study and the fact most urgently demanding explanation."
In this instance on Everest, there are many strong rationalizations for why the group’s actions could not have been avoided: costs, rewards foregone, objectives not realized, legal risks, etc. Indeed, if each of the 40 climbers paid $65,000 to climb the mountain, the financial risk of not fulfilling that “promise” for “questionable reasons” could be very significant ($2,600,000).
Once invested in a point of view—due to institutionalization by industry practices and training, by socialization of an organization’s beliefs or values, due to past decisions or promises made, due to feeling uncomfortable under intense scrutiny, etc.—it is normal and imminently understandable why people rationalize their positions and decisions post facto. Indeed, it is a wonder that anyone can ever see the fullness of any situation they are a part due to the blinding effects of group socialization, acculturation, or institutionalization.
Yet, there has always been a great need to do so. Forget all of the corporate fiascos and scandals that we’re been made aware of recently. You can simply look around the world and truly wonder just how men and women can be so brutal and uncaring for each other in almost every corner of the world. History is replete with examples. The event on Everest seems insignificant in comparison.
MikeL
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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May 29, 2006 - 04:20pm PT
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What he said.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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May 29, 2006 - 04:45pm PT
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Awesome Post MikeL
Groupthink almost certainly is an influence in a large team of Himalayan Climbers, and most especially a commercial expedition and even more so when there is a publicity seeking event in the making (in this case, the ascent of a double amputee)
Doesn't mean they necessarily did an evil thing. I don't have the data to support that. Just that it can't be discounted as a contributing factor
Peace
Karl
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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May 29, 2006 - 05:00pm PT
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OK, stop calling/emailing.
I was bowing to authority. GET IT?
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Tahoe climber
Trad climber
Tahoe
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May 29, 2006 - 05:30pm PT
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I don't know what the right thing to do is/was in this case, but I do respect Karl's opinion - if we're not experienced pros, we can't summarily say (with any degree of accuracy) what was right and what was wrong.
Like many posters above, I like to think that in that position, I'd have examined all the options and done the right thing.
If he was basically beyond help, which may have been the case, then I can understand how people would basically consider him already dead and continue on.
If he had a viable chance of surviving via rescue attempts, then I would hope that any climber would have done all he or she could to rescue him and give him the most of that chance.
The truth is, we don't know which of the above two options was the case in point, and therefore, we can only debate theoretically. Since some of us assume one of the two cases and others assume the other, it makes sense that there is lots of disagreement.
I do think that it is good to debate about the scenario, and thus raise awareness of what the right thing to do is - that way, maybe we all have a better shot of making the right decision should we find ourselves there.
I don't think that boycotting Patagonia would have helped.
(Sorry Dirtydude, I just couldn't resist! LOL!)
Seriously, though, in one of the articles linked to this thread, I read something that will haunt me for a while:
"David Sharp, who was left to die on Mount Everest, told his mother before he died:
"You are never on your own. There are climbers everywhere.""
That's some of my thoughts on the issues.
-Aaron
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Howie
Trad climber
Calgary, Alberta
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May 29, 2006 - 06:24pm PT
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A similar situation arose on the North side recently, of which I am sure some of you are aware.
The full facts may not be known until the return to Canada of Andrew Brash but he and others helped save the life of another climber high up on the face. He had been left for dead also. Andrew and others set out earlier than necessary on their summit day to see for themselves what the situation was. The climber was if fact unconscious but alive. A rescue was organise and Andrew gave up his summit attempt to help.
I apologise if any of this information is inaccurate.
Howie.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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May 29, 2006 - 07:52pm PT
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Lincoln Hall just made the NBC evening news. Don't know WHAT that says about modern mountaineering and mainstream culture.
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Fluoride
Trad climber
on a rock or mountain out west
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Topic Author's Reply - May 29, 2006 - 08:19pm PT
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He was on ABC World News Tonight just now too, they did a nice 2 minute piece on it.
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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May 29, 2006 - 08:30pm PT
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Both David Sharp and Lincoln Hall were climbing on the north side of the mountain. The difference here is that Lincoln was part of a huge (and I mean huge) expedition (7 Summits Club) and he was able to receive help from his expedition mates. Also, Lincoln appears, from reports, to have been in much better shape when found so rescue was a more likely option. And one more important point. From reports, the climbing group that found him, led by Dan Mazur, gave up their summit attempt to coordinate the rescue with Lincoln Hall's teammates.
Bruce
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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May 29, 2006 - 08:33pm PT
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Thanks Bruce.
What's the news on his extremities?
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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May 29, 2006 - 08:37pm PT
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From reports on Everestnews.com, when Lincoln was found he was not wearing his gloves and his hands were severely frostbitten. Only time will tell what the extent of the damage is.
Bruce
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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May 29, 2006 - 08:41pm PT
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Sounding like someone who became Mayor of Chamonix.
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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May 29, 2006 - 09:03pm PT
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Anyone know why people take their gloves off in that situation? same thing happened with the japanese lady who died in 96. her gloves were off.
I really hope summit fever and the money at risk is not what tipped the scales on any rescue attempt for the guy who died recently.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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May 29, 2006 - 09:17pm PT
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One guy said that the photos he took were worth his lost fingertips.
I'm already missing one so don't know...
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Machine
Sport climber
the basement
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May 30, 2006 - 12:42am PT
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Some good comments. I believe group think is very powerful and I believe that the stronger personalities often direct the group.
If we decide now that we'll help that person instead of pushing to the top, there is a higher likelihood that when we get in that position we can resist the group-think and act on what we believe is right (decided back when we had a clear head).
The army does have it's support systems, as mentioned above, but it also teaches the soldiers, before they ever see combat, that the soldier/brother next to you is worth the risk.
It's not too strong to say that walking up the hill past a suffering/dying human being is wrong. The excuse that maybe they don't want company is weak. Ask them - if they can't answer, assume they'd like the company. I hope that the decision I make now will lead my actions if I ever encounter that situation.
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Conrad
climber
MT
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May 30, 2006 - 12:34pm PT
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Greetings,
In 95 Alex Lowe and I rescued two Tiawanese climbers off off the Football Field (19-5) on Denali. They were wandering around with their gloves off, no hats and in a real stupor after a 36 hour open bivy. After short roping them to the 17 camp a Chinook helicopter from the Army Rangers picked them up. Cold does strange things to people.
We later visted the climbers in Anchorage and they were not happy to see us. It reminded me of the scene in Forrest Gump where the one soldier is pissed that Forrest rescued him as he wanted to die a hero. (They later made peace, in a movie like way.) This team continued on the the Big E and Makalu Gao was part of the grim 96 scene and was lifted off. We heard back that the two fellows we helped out left Providence Hospital (perhaps the best in frost bite care) to return to Tiawan and that one of them took his life afterward. A sad story.
A very trying ordeal on Everest this season. Condolences to the familes a small wish that media would cover new routes and great climbs with equal fervor as they do the macabre side of climbing.
Conrad
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Mimi
Social climber
Seattle
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May 30, 2006 - 12:48pm PT
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Great stories, Conrad.
The disturbing thing I heard from an interview when the first E story broke about the New Zealander, Sharp, was that the people walking past him were told that he was "effectively ." Once that determination was made, no one bothered to try and help.
With all of the ities in the last few years, bodies must be all over the place up there?! Surely, they're not be brought down after the fact if they're being left to die in the first place?
It's really sad that instead of the '96 calamity waking people up, it seems that it's only made it worse.
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Wheels
Trad climber
Vista,CA
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May 30, 2006 - 03:57pm PT
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This thread was impossible - not post to - must work on my self control.
A. might be a good thing to discuss where the summit lies in everyone's list of priorities before a climb - I can't imagine that all those climbers who walked by would still do the same thing again - a discussion before hand may have given some of them a chance to decide before the group think and summit fever was upon them.
b. I'll not pass judgement on the climbers who didn't assist, but I would not be able to look at myself in the mirror if I had left David without assisting - I've barely mastered ignoring panhandlers, most of the time.
c. Medical personnel normally determine when someone has expired, and I see a big difference between walking by a dead body and one with a pulse - Beck Weathers was left for dead, and surely must have looked pretty much like David.
d. I'd want to know that anyone I climb with would feel similarly to me, that the mountain isn't going anywhere, and the next time up we may get to climb with a bikini team or something.
e. If any Billionaires are out there and want to fund the Mt E SAR - I'd love to go out there and just move up and down during climbing season. In fact somebody mentioned that the sherpas are $14 a day - seems like chicken feed to keep a dozen teams of 4 sherpas to be there when things go bad.
Ok - that was a little over 2 cents worth of commentary.
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