Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
|
|
|
Aug 22, 2012 - 12:22pm PT
|
Take it from me....47 years of climbing have convinced me that the single most important factor in any climbing excursion, be a multi-day alpine climb or a single day at the crags, is your partner.
|
|
splitter
Trad climber
Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
|
|
|
Aug 22, 2012 - 12:32pm PT
|
So, back to JL's list of seven Valley trad 10's. I guess in order to consider yourself a well rounded climber of any grade, you have to be able to free solo that grade. Cuz, that is what leading the crux on several of the climbs on that list essentially entailed, bitd! TZ for instance.
edit: except now,i guess, you could push a giant cam up it and essentially have a tr on it. regardless, it seems somewhat subjective, cuz, sooner or later you are gonna fail on something you may have done similar to it at even higher a rating. a lot of factors can come into play. but it is a pretty good rule of thumb in general, imo!
|
|
Clayton
Trad climber
|
|
|
Aug 22, 2012 - 01:05pm PT
|
I will play devil's advocate for a minute here. Let's just assume the grade itself is irrelevant and we are arguing that to be a 5.whatever climber, you have to be able to onsight any style of that climb, anytime, anywhere, 99% of the time.
1) how many 5.14 OWs are out there? how about 14d OWs? Not many at all. By that logic, NOBODY is a 5.14 climber because they don't onsight 5.14 at all styles.
2) Look at the best of the best: maybe just consider tommy caldwell, chris shrma & adam ondra... how many of them onsight 5.14 99% of the time? NOBODY. So by that logic, there are no 5.14 climbers in the world. My point is that different things are climbed in different style. Apples v oranges. Agreed this doesn't really apply to the 5.11 grade itself, since lots of people are strong enough to go ground up OS.
3) like others have already said, if I only climb 1 pitch of 5.11 per day (but onsight it) that's waaaay different than onsighting something like Freeway or U Wall or doing some sustained, grade VI 5.11... let alone if you're climbing at night, when you cant feel your fingers or with a pack on. Again, apples v oranges.
Bringing it back to the OP topic. If someone onsights a given grade pretty much all the time across styles but just doesn't climb one style... I wouldn't object to them being a [whatever grade] climber.
But in the end, what does it matter? Climb to climb. Keep it safe or go for broke. To each their own so why bother trying to make everything fit one mold.
|
|
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
|
Aug 22, 2012 - 08:15pm PT
|
I would guess that to become a solid, all-round climber at harder grades you more or less have to be interested in getting to the top of large, multi-pitch cliffs like in the Valley or up alpine [rock] summits. Over time that 'getting somewhere' inclination forces you to confront all kinds of different terrain and you either learn to deal with anything and everything that comes your way or you don't get up a lot of harder lines.
That definitely leaves me out as 'getting somewhere' or getting to the top of things has never been of any interest to me. I climb with an eye for specific kinds of movement I enjoy and which aren't found on every rock type and the kinds of rock that support it typically don't support certain other kinds of climbing and movement.
|
|
JLP
Social climber
The internet
|
|
|
Aug 22, 2012 - 08:52pm PT
|
I see this thread is still stuck trying to figure out what happened in the 80's. Boooorinngg.....
|
|
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
|
Aug 22, 2012 - 08:55pm PT
|
I see this thread is still stuck in the 80's. Boooorinngg.....
You mean onsight? As opposed to 27 dogging attempts to a chartreusepoint?
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Aug 22, 2012 - 08:55pm PT
|
healyje -- "I would guess that to become a solid, all-round climber at harder grades you more or less have to be interested in getting to the top of large, multi-pitch cliffs like in the Valley or up alpine [rock] summits."
I doubt it.
Guys that are masters at several or all different disciplines are born with those qualities and thru some hard work master them.
It's not where you go but what you have in your heart that matters,
I believe you, healyje, has that quality within you ......
|
|
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
|
Aug 22, 2012 - 09:10pm PT
|
...and thru some hard work master them.
My point was that hard work most likely happens over varied terrain on longer climbs attempting to top out on some feature. I could be wrong in that, but I'm guessing even the pentathletes of climbing who seek out training on specific style in isolation are still largely motivated by climbing longer routes where your are confronted with different styles on route.
I believe you, healyje, has that quality within you...
Oh, I've climbed 5.12/.13 in my day, but only in very specific, highly isolated circumstances and that has never really translated in any meaningful way to many other rock types or styles. The reason is because I don't like the other rock types for various reasons, most often because I don't care for the kind of movement they afford.
Vertical face climbing on small edges being a great example - could I do it? Maybe, but why? I basically climb to set loose an inner monkey which likes to move fast, dynamically, and continuously over steep terrain and roofs without a pause in the movement. Steep, hard face climbing on the other hand is all about strangling your inner monkey and not letting them loose for a millisecond. It's relatively static and tedious from my perspective and I've never had the slightest inclination to work on it except when it's the only thing standing between me and a roof (and the roofs usually look way easier to me than the face up to them when this happens).
|
|
tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
|
|
|
Aug 22, 2012 - 09:14pm PT
|
Loves gasoline. If i am getting into a big climb it is with someone whom i know well enough to know what each of us will be able to contribute to the climb. It is not a question that I have to ask. If it is an internet blind date I have learned my lesson and will not do a big climb without going cragging first...
A few years ago this dartmouth kid kept asking me to go to cannon for the black dike or up to willoughby and that he could get off of class @ 11:30 am... Seeing as his class was 1.5 hrs from either venue and both venues offer grade IV climbs i kept putting him off. Finally i cragged with the kid and found out what his gig was. the next time he asked me for a noon start to hit up cannon I bit and we casually did the Dike CTC in 3 hrs.. that was a fun afternoon but regardless of what someone tells me they climb I need to see it first and i do not need a number attached to it. I just need to see it done and know that the person will also be good company.
|
|
sethsquatch76
Trad climber
Joshua tree ca
|
|
|
Aug 22, 2012 - 09:33pm PT
|
Sean Nelb, crusher.
|
|
Matt
Trad climber
it's all turtles, all the way dooowwwwwnn!!!!!
|
|
|
Aug 22, 2012 - 10:25pm PT
|
somewhere between being a "solid 5.10 climber" and being a "5.14 climber", the whole idea of onsighting ANYTHING goes away completely- right?
so WHERE does that change happen?
seems like everyone i know climbing 5.12 or 5.13 with any regularity is to a very large degree out there projecting. i am not hating, just saying...
we are only talking about onsighting because it's a conversation about 5.10 vs 5.11- so at least that much has changed, seems to me.
|
|
donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
|
|
|
Aug 22, 2012 - 10:39pm PT
|
This has all devolved into another boring discussion on ratings. Ratings are extremely subjective and have so much variance as to make the notion of is he/she a 5.10, 5.11, 5.12.....climber nearly meaningless. Working a sport route and onsighting an alpine trad route are two very different animals. Climbing is too enjoyable, too addictive, too life affirming to become merely a numbers game.
|
|
mort7777
Trad climber
Santa Barbara
|
|
|
Aug 23, 2012 - 01:31pm PT
|
Largo is dead on right here. Here, Here!
|
|
Bela
climber
|
|
|
Aug 23, 2012 - 01:31pm PT
|
In agreement!
|
|
EdBannister
Mountain climber
13,000 feet
|
|
|
Aug 23, 2012 - 02:10pm PT
|
Ron Carson, Brett Maurer, Jeff Bosson, Randy Leavitt, Tony Yaniro, Mike Waugh, Brian Jonas, Bill Leventhal, Michael Kennedy, a bazillion guys from colorado and then add those Boise Boys, Clark Jacobs, and yes Eric Ericson, and Randy Vogel...at the other end John Long and all you stone master dudes ... not me though... i could only climb anything 5.10 : )
|
|
GZ
Trad climber
Joshua Tree
|
|
|
Aug 23, 2012 - 02:20pm PT
|
Cragman,
you're a solid grade ahead of me. Great insight.
Back in the day, you had to climb OW at stiff grades to get up Mescalito and others. The EARLY Yo Cats had to summon great courage and apply a slew of techniques to summit what for them was not an aesthetic line for it's own sake, but a weakness to the top. They employed whatever technique was called for, no playing to their individual strengths.
I concur with Largo. Precious few climbers in the last 30 years have been solid across the spectrum of 5.11
GZ
|
|
RDB
Social climber
wa
|
|
|
Aug 23, 2012 - 02:48pm PT
|
"the rarest thing in the entire climbing world is the true 5.11 trad leader"
agreed, few, damn few.
|
|
Chinchen
climber
Way out there....
|
|
|
Aug 23, 2012 - 04:29pm PT
|
Same boat Ron. But damn I'm having fun out there.
|
|
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
|
Aug 23, 2012 - 04:36pm PT
|
Ron, that's actually been the topic of most of my posts in the thread.
|
|
JLP
Social climber
The internet
|
|
|
Aug 23, 2012 - 04:49pm PT
|
I got burned out thinking I was cool for onsighting 11's on whatever. Naked Edge, Astroman = relics from the 70's. I rode that ego to it's death and got bored with climbing. It wasn't until I started pushing myself, training hard and projecting that I actually started to improve and enjoy climbing again. At this point, I can't stand the mentality that dominates this thread. I see it as a disease.
As far as who's good? There is no "telling" - you have to see it, and you will know when you do - and it has to be on something really hard.
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!